Rules Issue, Ethics Issue, or Neither??

[Meltdwhiskey]

Wow.  Looks like a Rules Issue and an Ethics Issue.  Terrible!!

[Golfingdad]

It should have been brought to the attention of the committee.  Regardless of whether you knew the rule, you were fairly certain that something didn't seem right.  You don't even have to take it to the committee in an accusatory fashion, simply in the interest of learning.  If that results in the proper disposition (in this case disqualification), then you have furthered the rules education of four players, three of whom probably won't be thrilled with the lesson.

For further information, since B and C had already lifted their balls, the option to play out of turn in stroke play (continuous putting rule, or whatever you want to call it) was no longer available.  They were clearly in breach of Rule 10-2, and because of the conversation, they were in DQ territory.

I can't disagree with you here.  You are right.  However, I can also honestly say that I'm glad I didn't bring it up afterwards.  That would have been the most uncomfortable awards ceremony ever.  Player C caused the whole issue inadvertently by making the offer.  I'm certain he just didn't realize what he was doing was wrong.  I'm also certain that when I mention it to him (I will next time I see him) that he'll probably realize it wasn't a bright idea.  Player A seemed a little confused at the first offer (he seemed to give pause a bit) but then said yes.  Now, my experience in these tournaments is that most people just simply don't know many of the rules.  Obviously I don't and I seem to know more than most.  I'm pretty confident that he may have thought to himself the question was odd, but then he also assumed that "hey, if he's asking me then he must know it's not against the rules" and that is why he said yes.

I also think the only reason Player A asked B to go first was because of C's offer.  And B was somewhat reluctant (based on body language, I'm guessing here) and was obviously perturbed at missing his putt (which would have tied him for 2nd)

So the scenario - had I brought it up to the committee - would have had them all DQ'd.  The real instigator of the whole thing was Player C, and he finished in a tie for 12th, out of 16 players.  A won, and B came in third (because he missed the putt that he reluctantly rushed).

I can also honestly say that the guy who came in second would not have wanted that trophy ... because he didn't earn it or deserve it.

^ This exactly, the group probably enforced proper order of play the entire round until 18th.  A simple reminder would have solved any ethical issues or rules violations.  Deep down, they had to know providing the away player with a putting line was against the rules.

Yeah, and I'll find out when I ask him.  Maybe he didn't and he thought nothing of it ... but I'll make sure for next time that he does know.

I'm also glad I have learned from this so I can help prevent something like this from happening in the future.

------------------------------------

Fourputt will probably crucify me for this one:  In this case, the fact that nothing they did affected the outcome of the tournament in a positive way for any of them, matters to me.  B and C, at best, actually punished themselves by going first.  Had they made their putts they would have each finished one spot higher.  And A could have 4 putted from that spot and he still would have won.  If A had sunk that putt, and it turned out that he beat 2nd place by one shot, then I'd be pretty upset with myself for not knowing the rule.

[Golfingdad]

Follow up questions:

If C asked A "You want me to putt so you can see the line?" and A said "no thanks" ... would C still be on the hook for an "advice" penalty?

Also, if that didn't happen, and if A asked B to putt out and B said no ... could it be inferred that A was trying to get the line and HE'D be on the hook for an advice penalty?

[iacas]

Player C caused the whole issue inadvertently by making the offer.

The player accepted, did he not? And you sat silently by, did you not? As did the other player who then also helped?

All four of you violated the rules. Three of you violated the rules (you simply let them). By ignorance you also allowed others in the field to finish lower than they deserved to finish. Who should have finished second but now finished third, fourth, or fifth instead? It's not just about who won or should have won…

Now, my experience in these tournaments is that most people just simply don't know many of the rules.  Obviously I don't and I seem to know more than most.  I'm pretty confident that he may have thought to himself the question was odd, but then he also assumed that "hey, if he's asking me then he must know it's not against the rules" and that is why he said yes.

Shame.

So the scenario - had I brought it up to the committee - would have had them all DQ'd.  The real instigator of the whole thing was Player C, and he finished in a tie for 12th, out of 16 players.  A won, and B came in third (because he missed the putt that he reluctantly rushed).

I can also honestly say that the guy who came in second would not have wanted that trophy ... because he didn't earn it or deserve it.

Unfortunately, you don't get to make that decision on behalf of the rest of the field.

Fourputt will probably crucify me for this one:  In this case, the fact that nothing they did affected the outcome of the tournament in a positive way for any of them, matters to me.  B and C, at best, actually punished themselves by going first.  Had they made their putts they would have each finished one spot higher.  And A could have 4 putted from that spot and he still would have won.  If A had sunk that putt, and it turned out that he beat 2nd place by one shot, then I'd be pretty upset with myself for not knowing the rule.

Yeah, you're wrong about all of that. And the other competitors have a beef with you. What if A had made his putt and won the season stroke average comp by a shot? What if someone else not in your group shot 77? You can look at all this stuff after the fact, but you didn't have that knowledge at the time. You're justifying allowing friends and competitors to break the rules, and consoling yourself by saying "it didn't really matter."

Well heck, I'll just tee off two inches outside of the cup. I'll pick up one-inch putts, because really, nobody misses those. So that doesn't matter either, right? Why not?

If C asked A "You want me to putt so you can see the line?" and A said "no thanks" ... would C still be on the hook for an "advice" penalty?

That's not advice. Playing out of order is the issue here.

Also, if that didn't happen, and if A asked B to putt out and B said no ... could it be inferred that A was trying to get the line and HE'D be on the hook for an advice penalty?

Another player is not obligated to play out of turn, and if you ask someone to do so in order to benefit you, you can still be DQed.

Enough with the "advice" stuff. Absolutely none of this is "advice." Hitting a golf shot is never "advice."

Advice

“ Advice ’’ is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke .

Information on the Rules , distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green , is not advice .

[Golfingdad]

The player accepted, did he not? And you sat silently by, did you not? As did the other player who then also helped?

All four of you violated the rules. You least of all, but ignorance you also allowed others in the field to finish lower than they deserved to finish. Who should have finished second but now finished third, fourth, or fifth instead? It's not just about who won or should have won…

Shame.

Unfortunately, you don't get to make that decision on behalf of the rest of the field.

Yeah, you're wrong about all of that.  And the other competitors have a beef with you. What if A had made his putt and won the season stroke average comp by a shot? What if someone else not in your group shot 77? You can look at all this stuff after the fact, but you didn't have that knowledge at the time. You're justifying allowing friends and competitors to break the rules, and consoling yourself by saying "it didn't really matter."

Well heck, I'll just tee off two inches outside of the cup. I'll pick up one-inch putts, because really, nobody misses those. So that doesn't matter either, right? Why not?

That's not advice. Playing out of order is the issue here.

Another player is not obligated to play out of turn, and if you ask someone to do so in order to benefit you, you can still be DQed.

Enough with the "advice" stuff. Absolutely none of this is "advice." Hitting a golf shot is never "advice."

Advice

“Advice’’ is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.

Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on theputting green, is not advice.

I guess that settles it then.

I'm an *******.

Sorry guys.

[newtogolf]

I guess that settles it then.

I'm an *******.

Sorry guys.

Nah, you're just a nice guy that was putt (pun intended) in a crappy position by others.  The easy thing to do isn't always the right thing, and since you weren't 100% sure on the rules you took the path of least resistance as many would have.

I carry a copy of the rule book in my bag and when these awkward things come up, I suggest to the group we consult the rules, which usually results in someone owning up to knowing the rule and doing the right thing.

You don't have to be a rules expert to know proper order of play, one or more of them knew it was shady.

[iacas]

I guess that settles it then.

I'm an *******.

Sorry guys.

I didn't say anything like that. C'mon now.

I do think you (and everyone else) should know the rules before you play anything more than a casual round with your buddies. Playing out of turn isn't exactly a difficult rule to understand and enforce.

I think it feels like you're trying to rationalize your decision not to say anything (despite what I believe you said were obvious feelings of uncertainty).

Golf isn't who you are, nor is any one action. But hopefully incidents like this cause you to man up, read a rule or two a day while you're on the can or something, and enforce them properly for the benefit of yourself and everyone else when you're playing a serious event.

[Golfingdad]

I didn't say anything like that. C'mon now.

I do think you (and everyone else) should know the rules before you play anything more than a casual round with your buddies. Playing out of turn isn't exactly a difficult rule to understand and enforce.

I think it feels like you're trying to rationalize your decision not to say anything (despite what I believe you said were obvious feelings of uncertainty).

Golf isn't who you are, nor is any one action. But hopefully incidents like this cause you to man up, read a rule or two a day while you're on the can or something, and enforce them properly for the benefit of yourself and everyone else when you're playing a serious event.

Yes, it isn't a difficult rule to understand at all.  And it's not difficuly to enforce either.  I understand it NOW and I will enforce it in the future.  But I didn't know it.  I obviously was aware that something seemed amiss, which is why I started this thread in the first place.  I wanted to learn, I did, and now I can move on.

It still doesn't take away from how your last post felt a little like you were accusing me of cheating. That upset me. I didn't know what else to say.

[iacas]

It still doesn't take away from how your last post felt a little like you were accusing me of cheating. That upset me. I didn't know what else to say.

I don't know how you took it that way. You failed in your obligation to protect the rest of the field by enforcing the Rules. You had doubts but didn't even take your question to the committee or look up the Rules of Golf on your smart phone afterwards.

Those are all facts, are they not? If you feel bad about those statements of fact, if you are upset by them, then perhaps you feel bad about them not because I said them, but because you realize you should have done something differently.

And nothing I said even approaches calling you a cheater. It's weird that you would say that, particularly given the recent Brandel/Tiger thread - "cheating" implies or flat out says you intentionally and knowingly violate the rules. You didn't even violate the rules here - you simply let one of your responsibilities slide (i.e. you can't be penalized). It's not like I even went so far as to write "100," cross it off, and then write "F" beneath it after telling a story about how I "cheated" previously.

P.S. At the end of the day it's just a ****ing golf tournament. I know it, you know it, everyone here knows it. In the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter one little bit. Live and learn, and move on.

[newtogolf]

Yes, it isn't a difficult rule to understand at all.  And it's not difficuly to enforce either.  I understand it NOW and I will enforce it in the future.  But I didn't know it.  I obviously was aware that something seemed amiss, which is why I started this thread in the first place.  I wanted to learn, I did, and now I can move on.

It still doesn't take away from how your last post felt a little like you were accusing me of cheating. That upset me. I didn't know what else to say.

All joking aside, now you have a sense of how Tiger probably felt after the BC article, which is why some of us were so vocal against BC.

[iacas]

All joking aside, now you have a sense of how Tiger probably felt after the BC article, which is why some of us were so vocal against BC.

I disagree. Nobody's called Drew a cheater (or strongly implied it as Brandel did with Tiger), and as I just said, Drew didn't even violate the rules (unlike Tiger, who did).

The public part of this that I wish to stress is simply this:

• @Golfingdad did not violate the rules himself.
• He simply failed to protect the rest of the field.

It's almost the same thing as a guy picking up a one-foot putt instead of holing out and another player letting him do it.

[newtogolf]

I disagree. Nobody's called Drew a cheater (or strongly implied it as Brandel did with Tiger), and as I just said, Drew didn't even violate the rules (unlike Tiger, who did).

The public part of this that I wish to stress is simply this:

@Golfingdad did not violate the rules himself.

He simply failed to protect the rest of the field.

It's almost the same thing as a guy picking up a one-foot putt instead of holing out and another player letting him do it.

I agree 100% no one thinks Drew is a cheater.  My point was how serious an accusation calling someone a cheater is given that's how Drew felt.

I agree with all points, I never thought for a second he was a cheater.

[Ernest Jones]

Where's the God damn Group Hug icon....

[Golfingdad]

I don't know how you took it that way. You failed in your obligation to protect the rest of the field by enforcing the Rules. You had doubts but didn't even take your question to the committee or look up the Rules of Golf on your smart phone afterwards.

You are right.  I failed by not knowing the rule, and I should have brought it up.  But, as is pretty obvious by this thread at this point, some peoples opinions of me matter more than they should and rocking the boat by bringing this up afterwards (especially knowing at that point that no harm was done by their actions) is not really in my nature.  (More on this at the bottom)**

Those are all facts, are they not? If you feel bad about those statements of fact, if you are upset by them, then perhaps you feel bad about them not because I said them, but because you realize you should have done something differently.

They are facts, and I'm no psychologist, but you could be right.  Maybe I am justifying my own mistake and its the mistake I should feel bad about, not you for pointing it out.

And nothing I said even approaches calling you a cheater. It's weird that you would say that, particularly given the recent Brandel/Tiger thread - "cheating" implies or flat out says you intentionally and knowingly violate the rules. You didn't even violate the rules here - you simply let one of your responsibilities slide (i.e. you can't be penalized). It's not like I even went so far as to write "100," cross it off, and then write "F" beneath it after telling a story about how I "cheated" previously.

You're right.  I'm sorry for suggesting that you called me a cheater.  But you did say that I violated the rules.

P.S. At the end of the day it's just a ****ing golf tournament. I know it, you know it, everyone here knows it. It doesn't matter much at all - what you had for breakfast this morning probably matters more than a stupid golf tournament. Live and learn, and move on.

**And this is the main reason why I was not too worried about anything prior to this thread.  I play in these tournaments for a lot of reasons, one of which is certainly to be in a fair competition.  However, far and away, the main reason why I play in these tournaments and the main reason why I play golf in general, is because its fun.  Yes, it is me justifying a screw-up, but at the same time, I truly believe that had I brought this up and got those guys DQ'd, that aspect of it would go out the window.  Every future tournament involving any of these 3 guys, and likely, any other person in the room at the time of my trophy presentation, is going to be uncomfortable, and thus, not fun.  I'm going to be "that guy" who called out his playing partners on a rule just so he could win the tournament on a technicality.  That wouldn't be the case, but that very well could be the perception, and that, along with the perception of the perception (it doesn't really matter what they think of me, it matters what I think they think of me), is all that matters.

------------------------

Anyways, I apologize for my "martyr-y" post earlier.  I shouldn't have done that.

[iacas]

You're right.  I'm sorry for suggesting that you called me a cheater.  But you did say that I violated the rules.

Yep. That was a mistake and I was wrong. I corrected it at some point but it was too late. I also said something like "But" when I meant to say "By" or something. Not a great pair of sentences.

Yes, it is me justifying a screw-up, but at the same time, I truly believe that had I brought this up and got those guys DQ'd, that aspect of it would go out the window.

That's why the best solution is to know the rules and help prevent others from breaking them. Then you can have fun, sleep well at night, educate others, AND fulfill your responsibilities.

I'm going to be "that guy" who called out his playing partners on a rule just so he could win the tournament on a technicality.

Well, to be fair, they'd also be the three people who got DQed.

Let me put it another way, though, in favor of knowing the rules: You could have also been the guy that SAVED them from getting DQed. Then you'd forever be THAT guy, which is a GOOD thing. No?

[Club Rat]

Where's the God damn Group Hug icon....

It's the best I can come up with on short notice............

Club Rat

[Ernest Jones]

NVM.

[Club Rat]

Wow, it must be Monday .........

Or, are you always that cheerful..........

Club Rat