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MitsuEd

Dispute on where ball is lost.

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Good Day,

I was playing a competitive round with three friends and following is the ruling given to me which I disagree with.

There is water on the right off the tee shot to about 200 yards and then a landing area part fairway & rough with water further to the right, about 30 yards or so.

In other words the fairway is narrow up to 200 yards from the tee then it widens out 30 yards more and then it narrows again about 40 yards further towards the green.

I hit a solid push fade of, by my estimate, 225 yards over the first bit of the lake and saw the ball landing but did not see it bounce or splash. We did not find my ball and my opinion is that the ball must have bounced right or forward and entered the lake. I am positive that I carried the first part of the lake & knowing that you take your penalty drop from where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard, that is where I wanted to drop.

My fellow competitors did not agree and wanted me to go way back and take my penalty drop much further from the hole (which I did and made bogey).

I know I can play two balls, but this was an informal game and there was no rules committee.

In this circumstance what would you advise?

I hope my description of the issue has been clear.

Thanks for your comments / advice.

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I hate this. Happens all the time. Someone sees it one way and another sees it differently. In a "friendly" game, in my experience, the one with more conviction convinces the other. I'm always unclear when my version works to my advantage since I may be unintentionally seeing it more optimistically than reality. I do not know if it is correct, but I've thought the fellow competitors' opinion is the final one if they are sticking to it.

Rules guru help please.

Is the "correct" answer the same for any rules dispute?

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The final decision is that of the player unless a referee or the committee get involved. A fellow competitor may have an opinion but that's all it is.

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If the ball is *lost*, you must go back to the tee box and hit 3.

You have to be virtually certain that the ball is in the hazard to take the appropriate penalty drop.

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If the ball is *lost*, you must go back to the tee box and hit 3.

You have to be virtually certain that the ball is in the hazard to take the appropriate penalty drop.

Right.

OP, if the area in question is all fairway ... as in, it would be impossible for your ball to not be in the water hazard and not be visible, then you can be virtually certain.  However, if there is considerable rough, or areas bushes and such outside of the hazard that could also theoretically contain your ball, then you'd have to re-hit.

OTOH, it doesn't sound like the dispute was whether or not the ball entered the hazard, but moreso where it entered the hazard.  In which case, it sounds like Rulesman's answer applies.

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If the ball is *lost*, you must go back to the tee box and hit 3.

You have to be virtually certain that the ball is in the hazard to take the appropriate penalty drop.

The issue isn't whether or not the ball is in the hazard, the issue is where the ball last crossed into the hazard.  I feel that unless I'm absolutely certain, I go with what my playing companion feels.  He's the one who hit the shot, and he's the one who has to live with his decision.  He's already incurring a penalty stroke, and unless I hit an equally bad shot, I'm a bit up on him for the hole anyway, so I'm not going to be an ass and contradict what he feels is right.  Golf being a game of honor applies to all players, not only to the one who played the shot.

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Lost or unfound ball.  As a practical matter,  a player's ball is indisputably hit in either casual water area or in a deeply embedded lie in very wet, soft, soggy turf in the same area; in either case the ball cannot be found.

May a ball lost in these conditions be played the same way? Drop a ball in the nearest area of full relief, no penalty?

In both instances, everyone agrees as to the same area.  In my group, we almost always take the word of the player and give the benefit of the doubt.  In tournament play, what is the ruling?  Go back to the tee and play one ball as if lost, and another ball from the casual water area.  How or should the Committee/Pro rule in a competitive event?

Does the player with the best vision make the decision?

Blind tee shot, hit over a mound, apparently down the middle, to a fairway that runs away and out to a hazard.  Yes; thick rough to either side of the fairway and before the hazard.  The ball cannot be found.  .  May it be assumed the ball ran out into the hazard? Is every ball hit to a blind target that cannot be found a "lost" ball, regardless of the terrain?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by metrybill View Post

Lost or unfound ball.  As a practical matter,  a player's ball is indisputably hit in either casual water area or in a deeply embedded lie in very wet, soft, soggy turf in the same area; in either case the ball cannot be found.

May a ball lost in these conditions be played the same way? Drop a ball in the nearest area of full relief, no penalty?

In both instances, everyone agrees as to the same area.  In my group, we almost always take the word of the player and give the benefit of the doubt.  In tournament play, what is the ruling?  Go back to the tee and play one ball as if lost, and another ball from the casual water area.  How or should the Committee/Pro rule in a competitive event?

Does the player with the best vision make the decision?

Blind tee shot, hit over a mound, apparently down the middle, to a fairway that runs away and out to a hazard.  Yes; thick rough to either side of the fairway and before the hazard.  The ball cannot be found.  .  May it be assumed the ball ran out into the hazard? Is every ball hit to a blind target that cannot be found a "lost" ball, regardless of the terrain?

Rule 25-1c covers this:

Quote:

c . Ball in Abnormal Ground Condition Not Found

It is a question of fact whether a ball that has not been found after having been struck toward an abnormal ground condition is in such a condition. In order to apply this Rule, it must be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the abnormal ground condition . In the absence of such knowledge or certainty, the player must proceed under Rule 27-1 .

If it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in an abnormal ground condition , the player may take relief under this Rule. If he elects to do so, the spot where the ball last crossed the outermost limits of the abnormal ground condition must be determined and, for the purpose of applying this Rule, the ball is deemed to lie at this spot and the player must proceed as follows:

(i) Through the Green : If the ball last crossed the outermost limits of the abnormal ground condition at a spot through the green , the player may substitute another ball, without penalty, and take relief as prescribed in Rule 25-1b(i) .

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The final decision is that of the player unless a referee or the committee get involved. A fellow competitor may have an opinion but that's all it is.

Hmmm... I know I was right ("virtually certain") but I don't think i could get my playing companions to agree to this, it would probably cause a lot of arguing.

Thanks for all the replies.

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Good Day,

I was playing a competitive round with three friends and following is the ruling given to me which I disagree with.

There is water on the right off the tee shot to about 200 yards and then a landing area part fairway & rough with water further to the right, about 30 yards or so.

In other words the fairway is narrow up to 200 yards from the tee then it widens out 30 yards more and then it narrows again about 40 yards further towards the green.

I hit a solid push fade of, by my estimate, 225 yards over the first bit of the lake and saw the ball landing but did not see it bounce or splash. We did not find my ball and my opinion is that the ball must have bounced right or forward and entered the lake. I am positive that I carried the first part of the lake & knowing that you take your penalty drop from where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard, that is where I wanted to drop.

My fellow competitors did not agree and wanted me to go way back and take my penalty drop much further from the hole (which I did and made bogey).

I know I can play two balls, but this was an informal game and there was no rules committee.

In this circumstance what would you advise?

I hope my description of the issue has been clear.

Thanks for your comments / advice.

You drop at the location where your ball broke the plane of the water.  If it crossed water and then some fairway and then over water again, I would drop where you wanted to drop.  You passed the first water just fine.  If your fellow competitors don't like where you have chosen to drop your ball then smack em with your 9 iron.  The next time they question where you want to drop just raise that 9 iron up again and they will probably stop questioning where you drop your ball. :-)

Seriously though, I would say you drop where you crossed the water the second time.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by MitsuEd

Good Day,

I was playing a competitive round with three friends and following is the ruling given to me which I disagree with.

There is water on the right off the tee shot to about 200 yards and then a landing area part fairway & rough with water further to the right, about 30 yards or so.

In other words the fairway is narrow up to 200 yards from the tee then it widens out 30 yards more and then it narrows again about 40 yards further towards the green.

I hit a solid push fade of, by my estimate, 225 yards over the first bit of the lake and saw the ball landing but did not see it bounce or splash. We did not find my ball and my opinion is that the ball must have bounced right or forward and entered the lake. I am positive that I carried the first part of the lake & knowing that you take your penalty drop from where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard, that is where I wanted to drop.

My fellow competitors did not agree and wanted me to go way back and take my penalty drop much further from the hole (which I did and made bogey).

I know I can play two balls, but this was an informal game and there was no rules committee.

In this circumstance what would you advise?

I hope my description of the issue has been clear.

Thanks for your comments / advice.

You drop at the location where your ball broke the plane of the water.  If it crossed water and then some fairway and then over water again, I would drop where you wanted to drop.  You passed the first water just fine.  If your fellow competitors don't like where you have chosen to drop your ball then smack em with your 9 iron.  The next time they question where you want to drop just raise that 9 iron up again and they will probably stop questioning where you drop your ball.

Seriously though, I would say you drop where you crossed the water the second time.

Dude, if you are going to participate in a rules discussion, then discuss the rules, not your peculiar version of the game.  When questions are asked in this forum, it's because the player is concerned with what is correct according to the Rules of Golf.  Your personal modification doesn't qualify.

It's a question of fact if the ball is in the water hazard, and it's also a question of fact where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard.  Doubt is resolved against the player in this case, meaning that he would drop at the farthest point from the hole where it was certain that the ball crossed the margin.  You can't make an assumption and take a favorable drop based on that assumption.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by MitsuEd

Good Day,

I was playing a competitive round with three friends and following is the ruling given to me which I disagree with.

There is water on the right off the tee shot to about 200 yards and then a landing area part fairway & rough with water further to the right, about 30 yards or so.

In other words the fairway is narrow up to 200 yards from the tee then it widens out 30 yards more and then it narrows again about 40 yards further towards the green.

I hit a solid push fade of, by my estimate, 225 yards over the first bit of the lake and saw the ball landing but did not see it bounce or splash. We did not find my ball and my opinion is that the ball must have bounced right or forward and entered the lake. I am positive that I carried the first part of the lake & knowing that you take your penalty drop from where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard, that is where I wanted to drop.

My fellow competitors did not agree and wanted me to go way back and take my penalty drop much further from the hole (which I did and made bogey).

I know I can play two balls, but this was an informal game and there was no rules committee.

In this circumstance what would you advise?

I hope my description of the issue has been clear.

Thanks for your comments / advice.

You drop at the location where your ball broke the plane of the water.  If it crossed water and then some fairway and then over water again, I would drop where you wanted to drop.  You passed the first water just fine.  If your fellow competitors don't like where you have chosen to drop your ball then smack em with your 9 iron.  The next time they question where you want to drop just raise that 9 iron up again and they will probably stop questioning where you drop your ball.

Seriously though, I would say you drop where you crossed the water the second time.

You're 0 for 7.

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Dude, if you are going to participate in a rules discussion, then discuss the rules, not your peculiar version of the game.  When questions are asked in this forum, it's because the player is concerned with what is correct according to the Rules of Golf.  Your personal modification doesn't qualify.

It's a question of fact if the ball is in the water hazard, and it's also a question of fact where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard.  Doubt is resolved against the player in this case, meaning that he would drop at the farthest point from the hole where it was certain that the ball crossed the margin.  You can't make an assumption and take a favorable drop based on that assumption.

What is the problem with this ?

Seriously though, I would say you drop where you crossed the water the second time.

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Dude, if you are going to participate in a rules discussion, then discuss the rules, not your peculiar version of the game.  When questions are asked in this forum, it's because the player is concerned with what is correct according to the Rules of Golf.  Your personal modification doesn't qualify.

It's a question of fact if the ball is in the water hazard, and it's also a question of fact where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard.  Doubt is resolved against the player in this case, meaning that he would drop at the farthest point from the hole where it was certain that the ball crossed the margin.  You can't make an assumption and take a favorable drop based on that assumption.

I'm using the rule you just quoted.  "where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard".  If the water hazard is u-shaped such that his drive crossed the water and then crossed playable territory and then crossed over the water a second time and landed in it, you tell me where the ball LAST crossed the margin of the hazard?  Sounds to me like you drop where it LAST crossed that margin, not back where it first crossed that margin.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenn View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

Dude, if you are going to participate in a rules discussion, then discuss the rules, not your peculiar version of the game.  When questions are asked in this forum, it's because the player is concerned with what is correct according to the Rules of Golf.  Your personal modification doesn't qualify.

It's a question of fact if the ball is in the water hazard, and it's also a question of fact where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard .  Doubt is resolved against the player in this case, meaning that he would drop at the farthest point from the hole where it was certain that the ball crossed the margin.  You can't make an assumption and take a favorable drop based on that assumption.

I'm using the rule you just quoted.  "where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard".  If the water hazard is u-shaped such that his drive crossed the water and then crossed playable territory and then crossed over the water a second time and landed in it, you tell me where the ball LAST crossed the margin of the hazard?  Sounds to me like you drop where it LAST crossed that margin, not back where it first crossed that margin.

The point is that there is a question as to whether the ball crossed the second peninsula or entered the water before it got there.  If the player is certain that his ball crossed the peninsula, then he may proceed under that belief.  If he is playing with some guy named Hawkeye who has great vision and who swears that the ball did not carry that far, then he should invoke 3-3 and play a second ball from the spot farther from the hole and let the competition committee make the decision.  The odds are good that they will support the player, but it pays to cover your bet with a second ball just in case.

I've been in a similar situation, only where I hit a strong fade and the dispute was about where the curving flight actually crossed into the hazard.  In my case I had support from the other 2 fellow competitors, both of whom had a better line of sight than the one who disputed my drop, and the committee ruling was in my favor.  In the OP's scenario, you really can't guarantee that the committee will back you if the other three competitors are firm in their contention that you are mistaken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rulesman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

Dude, if you are going to participate in a rules discussion, then discuss the rules, not your peculiar version of the game.  When questions are asked in this forum, it's because the player is concerned with what is correct according to the Rules of Golf.  Your personal modification doesn't qualify.

It's a question of fact if the ball is in the water hazard, and it's also a question of fact where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard.  Doubt is resolved against the player in this case, meaning that he would drop at the farthest point from the hole where it was certain that the ball crossed the margin.  You can't make an assumption and take a favorable drop based on that assumption.

What is the problem with this ?

Seriously though, I would say you drop where you crossed the water the second time.

This is the part of his diatribe which I took issue with:

Quote:
You drop at the location where your ball broke the plane of the water.  If it crossed water and then some fairway and then over water again, I would drop where you wanted to drop.  You passed the first water just fine.  If your fellow competitors don't like where you have chosen to drop your ball then smack em with your 9 iron.  The next time they question where you want to drop just raise that 9 iron up again and they will probably stop questioning where you drop your ball.

And I had just read about 5 other posts by the guy in which he ranted against the rules, so I was already tired of his nonsense.

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The point is that there is a question as to whether the ball crossed the second peninsula or entered the water before it got there.  If the player is certain that his ball crossed the peninsula, then he may proceed under that belief.  If he is playing with some guy named Hawkeye who has great vision and who swears that the ball did not carry that far, then he should invoke 3-3 and play a second ball from the spot farther from the hole and let the competition committee make the decision.  The odds are good that they will support the player, but it pays to cover your bet with a second ball just in case.

No, the point is if he did just exactly what he said he did, where does he drop the ball?  In that case he should drop just where you said, where it last crossed the margin of the hazard.  Now you are asking another question, if his partners are calling him a liar I guess you are right and he needs to drop where they tell him to but if it happened the way he described it, he should be dropping where he intended to drop it.

This is the part of his diatribe which I took issue with:

Diatribe?  Took issue with?  Sorry, I thought it was funny.

And I had just read about 5 other posts by the guy in which he ranted against the rules, so I was already tired of his nonsense.

I don't think I was ranting against any rules.

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I don't think I was ranting against any rules.

So, you don't think that dropping out of a divot is a breach?  Or rolling the ball from a bad lie?  That's what you were railing against in the other thread.  And in the process insinuating that those of us who did weren't using your good sense.  That sort of attitude won't make a lot of friends, especially when you then try to deny it.

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It’s the most remote part of the course, surrounded by some trees and multimillion-dollar homes. 5 plays back up the hill as a par 5, and it’s visually tricky. It looks like your line from the tee is the left side, but that brings a fairway bunker and the waste area into play. You cannot see the extent of the waste area from the tee. You want to favor the left side to get a shorter shot into the green, because it’s a reachable par 5. That brings the waste area and the lottery of getting a good lie in it into play. (Looking back on the 5th green. You can sort of see how domed the greens are.) Finally, the par 3s are monsters. They all played over 160, and those menacing greens make the tee shots a lot more difficult than they should be. Phil and I both hit the longest one in regulation, which was awesome. My tee shot hit the front of the green and was about 2 feet from rolling off the back because of the slope. That gives you an idea of how firm and severe the greens are. (My birdie putt on 6, which was playing at 205)   (Video of @phillyk's birdie putt on 6; he made par)   (Video of my birdie putt on 6 ... three putted) Some course pictures: (View up the first fairway, from the second tee box) (View up the 8th fairway) (View back down the fairway on hole 8 from the green) (Looking up the 13th hole from the tee) I will swallow my pride and admit that I played the wrong tees. We played the tips, which were 6900 yards. While I never had an issue of reaching the greens in regulation, I didn’t have a single wedge into a par 4 green. Like I said, I was mentally and physically spent from the Newport Cup, so I think playing a box up would have been more enjoyable. If I go back, I will play from the middle tees, which are about 6300 yards. I’ll have a lot more fun with the occasional wedge rather than the constant 6 irons I was hitting. By the way, I cannot fathom shooting a 65 from nearly 7600 like Martin Kaymer did at the US Open. This course is demanding, and it’s hard to believe that 65 could be had out there. I’m not an excellent golfer, but I’m an okay stick. The gap between me and him is a chasm that’s 50 miles wide and 10 miles deep. Do I have complaints? Two minor ones. First, it was less penal to go further offline off the tee. The long wispy grass came into play if you were still close to the fairway, but if you went way off line and ended up under a tree, you were going to get a better lie because there was only pinestraw there. I don’t like really bad misses getting penalized less than average misses. Also, the greenside sand was inconsistent. Some bunkers were like playing out of concrete. I hit a couple of sand shots expecting there to be sand and there was none (in full disclosure, there was a “local rule” that said the bunkers weren’t actually bunkers, but I played them like bunkers). Ultimately, hit the generous fairways and avoid the bunkers, and it isn’t an issue. These are minor quibbles.  We ended the round and went into the pro shop again. We then walked around outside for a little bit, taking some pictures in front of the Payne Stewart statue. We then had to leave pretty quickly to get to the airport. It would have been nice to stay a bit and have a beer while watching golfers come in. But that’s just a reason to come back… (Me at the Payne Stewart statue)
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