Greatest Playing Tips

[David in FL]

Don't follow a bad shot with a bad shot...

I change that to "don't follow a bad shot with a stupid shot.

[iacas]

Also, I think confidence and attitude are greatly important. if I aim at a 4 inch circle and miss by three feet, I feel like I failed. If I aim at a three foot circle, and put it in that circle my confidence goes up. This is a snowball effect.

I don't know about you, but consistently having easy second putts after putting from 40 feet away does NOT shrink my confidence. Quite the opposite. BTW, if I have a player, regardless of their skill level, with distance control issues, I have them putt to a string. That is a very small target. It also lets me identify quickly what is causing their distance control issues. The vast majority of the time it is due to acceleration in the downswing right on into impact.

[saevel25]

Am I going to teach a young pitcher how to throw a 12-6 curve or a slider? No, Im going to teach him a fastball, preferably 4 seam, its a high percentage pitch. When his arm developes and he can consistently throw strikes, im going to teach him a 2 seam fastball. Then a change-up, then a curveball. Im not going to teach him something he should do well in the future if he isn't doing the basics well. Its about honing skills. If someone is missing putts badly by being to fine, open the margin. When they can putt into the circle consistently, then the circle shrinks. When that's consistent, the circle shrinks again. I mean honestly, were talking about people trying to develop a consistent game and improve. If someone is starting out, are we going to push hitting draws and stingers in the first lesson because its what a good player does? I would hope not. I would hope we teach them grip, posture, proper rotation, proper transisition. After these things develop we get into the finer points. My point is for someone who is struggling, looking to improve, trying to lower their score.

Also, I think confidence and attitude are greatly important. if I aim at a 4 inch circle and miss by three feet, I feel like I failed. If I aim at a three foot circle, and put it in that circle my confidence goes up. This is a snowball effect.

Like I said, this isn't for everybody, just like a fade or a draw isn't or everybody. Aiming at the center of the green isn't for everybody. taking a wood instead of driver from the tee isn't for everybody. But it may help somebody and that is what this is all about.

Yet, amateurs are adults, and don't have a problem with destroying tendons in the elbow, so how is that applicable here?

Umm, its not that hard to teach distance control. If you tell them, sink the putt naturally their circle will shrink. you don't need to tier it.

No, if you aim for a 4 inch circle and miss then you move on and learn from it. All you are doing is coddling the golfer by saying, "Oh not to bad you got inside 3', we'll give you a trophy now". You can temper expectation through teaching, but to celebrate getting the ball inside 3 feet is just stupid, and it teaches the wrong mentality with putting. Putting is a killer instinct. When I get on the putting green everything is going in is my mentality. I want that confidence. I dont' want, 'Oh 3 feet is ok." NO!, I want to be draining them from 100 feet if I have to. The only way to develop that confidence is to practice making putts, not lagging putts. You think Tiger was stomping the life out of golfers in his early years by going, "Oh 3 feet is ok"?

[festivus]

Yet, amateurs are adults, and don't have a problem with destroying tendons in the elbow, so how is that applicable here?

Umm, its not that hard to teach distance control. If you tell them, sink the putt naturally their circle will shrink. you don't need to tier it.

No, if you aim for a 4 inch circle and miss then you move on and learn from it. All you are doing is coddling the golfer by saying, "Oh not to bad you got inside 3', we'll give you a trophy now". You can temper expectation through teaching, but to celebrate getting the ball inside 3 feet is just stupid, and it teaches the wrong mentality with putting. Putting is a killer instinct. When I get on the putting green everything is going in is my mentality. I want that confidence. I dont' want, 'Oh 3 feet is ok." NO!, I want to be draining them from 100 feet if I have to. The only way to develop that confidence is to practice making putts, not lagging putts. You think Tiger was stomping the life out of golfers in his early years by going, "Oh 3 feet is ok"?

Definitely agree on the mentality.  Some great research from Cook, Tanaka and a couple other groups on pressure's influence on putting performance.

Pressure essentially puts the autonomic nervous system into "fight or flight" mode (sympathetic side).  The decision to fight or flee is made quite quickly based on the brain's assessment of resources vs. demand.  However, that can be consciously overridden with essentially what saevil is describing: self-talk.  That pumps up your resources assessment.

Tell yourself you're the best putter in the world (more resources), and yes you can putt angry (turn flight into fight).  In both cases the image of making the putt and a tiny target is absolutely necessary.

I have pdf's of many of these publications if anyone wants them...

[gophinmedic]

Yet, amateurs are adults, and don't have a problem with destroying tendons in the elbow, so how is that applicable here?  Umm, its not that hard to teach distance control. If you tell them, sink the putt naturally their circle will shrink. you don't need to tier it.  No, if you aim for a 4 inch circle and miss then you move on and learn from it. All you are doing is coddling the golfer by saying, "Oh not to bad you got inside 3', we'll give you a trophy now". You can temper expectation through teaching, but to celebrate getting the ball inside 3 feet is just stupid, and it teaches the wrong mentality with putting. Putting is a killer instinct. When I get on the putting green everything is going in is my mentality. I want that confidence. I dont' want, 'Oh 3 feet is ok." NO!, I want to be draining them from 100 feet if I have to. The only way to develop that confidence is to practice making putts, not lagging putts. You think Tiger was stomping the life out of golfers in his early years by going, "Oh 3 feet is ok"?

Wow. You took the baseball reference out of context so I'm not even going to touch that one. Secondly, I didn't say accept mediocrity. I'm suggesting establish a base and build off of it. Shoot to the center of the green when the best players flag hunt when appropriate. So by yiur "killer instinct" theory, all players should be shooting at the flag when appropriate. For the last time, my advice was to someone struggling, not a zen putting master like yourself. If you don't agree that's fine. Let's try and be constructive and not get into a pissing match. It's clear now though that the only opinion you find credible is your own. So I'm agreeing to disagree here. Hopefully you can do the same.

[festivus]

I think the difference between firing at flags vs. trying to hole putts is actually quite large from a course management standpoint.

IMHO we're talking about the value of picking a very specific target with a very firm directive.

Related to ballstriking, that target could and often should be middle of the green or fat of the fairway...but the directive of "somewhere out there" is akin to the 3-foot circle in putting and in either case I don't think gives one the best focus or chance for improvement.

[saevel25]

Wow. You took the baseball reference out of context so I'm not even going to touch that one. Secondly, I didn't say accept mediocrity. I'm suggesting establish a base and build off of it. Shoot to the center of the green when the best players flag hunt when appropriate. So by yiur "killer instinct" theory, all players should be shooting at the flag when appropriate.

For the last time, my advice was to someone struggling, not a zen putting master like yourself. If you don't agree that's fine. Let's try and be constructive and not get into a pissing match. It's clear now though that the only opinion you find credible is your own. So I'm agreeing to disagree here. Hopefully you can do the same.

Not really, it has been shown that throwing a curve ball at a young age puts to much stress on a kids arm. So it is only naturally to teach them just the fastball.

I never said I was a zen master. Thanks for thinking I am though

No I never said go aiming at the flags. My mentality is only when on the greens. Or when I have an easy chip, then I try to chip in.

We are being constructive. You think golfers should just give up on making long putts, and I think golfers should give it a shot and try to make them.

Seriously if a person is struggling with distance control, it isn't that they don't practice. Its probably the stroke or the putter. You'd be shocked as to how important proper putter weighting is to putting. So first, every golfer should find a putter that they can 15 foot putts the same distance. If they struggle with that then they need a lesson or a new putter. I am talking easy putts here.

After that, then just practice hitting different length putts. Is it that big of a deal to measure of 25, 30, 35, 40 foot distances and try to get the ball to stop close to the hole? What pressure is that. Really it is to quote you, "ZEN" golf if you want to take it that way. You read the putt, you pick your line, you get over the ball, the only thing that matters is distance now. I mean, its not that hard. If you want to say to yourself, Ok with in 3 feet is a positive, outside is a negative, lets see how many positives I can get. The putter SHOULD still be trying to get the ball to roll to the hole.

[gophinmedic]

Not really, it has been shown that throwing a curve ball at a young age puts to much stress on a kids arm. So it is only naturally to teach them just the fastball.  I never said I was a zen master. Thanks for thinking I am though :-D No I never said go aiming at the flags. My mentality is only when on the greens. Or when I have an easy chip, then I try to chip in.  We are being constructive. You think golfers should just give up on making long putts, and I think golfers should give it a shot and try to make them. Seriously if a person is struggling with distance control, it isn't that they don't practice. Its probably the stroke or the putter. You'd be shocked as to how important proper putter weighting is to putting. So first, every golfer should find a putter that they can 15 foot putts the same distance. If they struggle with that then they need a lesson or a new putter. I am talking easy putts here.  After that, then just practice hitting different length putts. Is it that big of a deal to measure of 25, 30, 35, 40 foot distances and try to get the ball to stop close to the hole? What pressure is that. Really it is to quote you, "ZEN" golf if you want to take it that way. You read the putt, you pick your line, you get over the ball, the only thing that matters is distance now. I mean, its not that hard. If you want to say to yourself, Ok with in 3 feet is a positive, outside is a negative, lets see how many positives I can get. The putter SHOULD still be trying to get the ball to roll to the hole.

I wasn't talking about the physical detriments to young athletes throwing a curve ball. I know that's a problem, im a product of coaches not knowing that years ago. I was getting at teaching a fundamental skill first, then moving and advancing toward more skilled attributes. I am not saying give up on long putts, but we need to know how to make these long putts before we can try. You don't just hand someone a driver and say stick it out there at 290 in the middle of the fairway. I am speaking from my own experience. When I started playing (unable to afford real lessons) I started putting trying to make everything and as a result focused no attention on building the skill to do such a thing. When I stopped, and worked solely on speed, irregardless of where the ball ended in proximity to a hole, just concentrating on getting speed and distance control down, my putting improved tremendously. I then made my target a large area around the hole. After a couple weeks, I could put 95% of my putts in that circle, then I took it down to a circle 50% smaller. After I was above 90% with that, I decreased the size again. I eventually worked my way down to the cup itself. Over time, this made me start reading break more and more. But at this point, I had my speed down which made the line easier to see.Over this course of time, about two months, my putting improved by a total of 8 putts a round, pretty damn big difference. Now I practice making putts, not to a circle, because I improved myself and got better. I learned the fundementals, I became skilled at the fundementals. I established a base and grew off of that. Like ive said, this is how I did it, how it worked for me and possibly how it could work for someone else. I want to put that out there and give someone the opportunity to try it if they want. This process isn't about giving out trophies for mediocrity, its about learning each individual aspect and then piecing them together correctly.

[Hazard Finder]

For me to believe myself, I need to be confident, and that usually requires some past (positive) performance. So I get putting drills where you tighten the circle down to the hole. Assuming you complete that drill, that should help build confidence. Same with my driver. Only after I developed a (reasonably) consistent swing was I able to swing confidently (angry). That said, I do not understand why someone would not try to sink a putt during play. By the time you're on the green, course management should not be a concern, so trying to sink a long putt is high reward and low risk. As you point out, very different than aiming at the flag. And I'll admit that I'm usually content enough to leave an easy second putt, but I doubt my not-killer mentality is why I have to pay to play... On that note, your location reminded me that my introduction to golf was the student-plus-twilight discount at Birdwood. Several years later I actually attempted to play golf for the first time. But the importance of beer to golf was ingrained in those formative years...

[hopefulhacker]

Actually High Handicappers don't practice their long game near enough. Since the long game is the most important. Still amateurs have a better chance of getting up and down when they are closer to the green. I have no problem with an amateur hitting a hybrid over a wood if they know they can advance that club the farthest a good percentage of the time. I mean if they can get a good strike 80% of the time with a hybrid, and only 50% of the time with a 3-wood. Yea it isn't bad to sacrifice 15-20 yards. Especially if that 50% might be a chunk or duff. A player SHOULD NOT lay up on a par 5 when they HAVE the option to advance it as far as possible given their ability.

I think you're missing the fact the us High HC'ers don't "miss good" that often.

I may hit my 3 wood "good" 50% of the time (that can be broken down to hitting the green 25%,  with the other 25% being near misses...green-side bunkers, rough, short etc)

The remaining 50%.... well that could be OOB  or a different green altogether

Just because a Par 5 may not scream out with danger doesn't  mean we won't send our ball on a lon g trip to seek it out

I really wish I could take some of my own advice sometime.

[gophinmedic]

I think you're missing the fact the us High HC'ers don't "miss good" that often.  I may hit my 3 wood "good" 50% of the time (that can be broken down to hitting the green 25%,  with the other 25% being near misses...green-side bunkers, rough, short etc)  The remaining 50%.... well that could be OOB  or a different green altogether :-D  :8) Just because a Par 5 may not scream out with danger doesn't  mean we won't send our ball on a lon[SIZE=13px]g trip to seek it out [/SIZE][SIZE=13px]:bugout: [/SIZE] I really wish I could take some of my own advice sometime.

This is what I was getting at. In my 30 hcp days I topped a lot of woods. Leaving myself another wood. Or mayber a longer iron. And where I play, the white tees have 4 par 5's, all of which stretch over 520 yards. Which mean maxing out a driver, then maxing out a 3 wood. I never liked those odds and much preferred to play my third shot from 50-100 yards in the fairway and not from 180, or from the woods, or in the ponds. I think the courses you play have a lot to do with it as well. My home course is called "The Woods", and for good reason. On just about every hole, you have about 10 yards of rough on both sides, then dense forest. Not high percentage to risk half of my shots ending up in that crap. If your on a course that dosent have trees, or water on every hole, then your percentage goes up. My bad for not adding that earlier, it definitely makes a difference. Nowadays, I go for it, because I have the confidence and skill to do so, but back then, I saved a lot of pointless shots playing this way.

[Jakester23]

Hopefullhacker and gophinmedic I don't think either one of you understand what saevel25 is saying. What he means is on a par 5 lets say you're sitting 250 after your tee shot. The best chance for the lowest possible score is to play the longest club you can. Now obviously that's not always going to be a 3 wood but hitting an 8 or 7 iron to lay up to the 100 yard mark on average is a worse idea. If you look up pgas best average proximity to the hole from 100-125 you will be shocked at how far away they are on average. Pitching or chipping gives you a much better chance at birdie or par than a 100 yard approach shot regardless of ability level.

[hopefulhacker]

Hopefullhacker and gophinmedic I don't think either one of you understand what saevel25 is saying. What he means is on a par 5 lets say you're sitting 250 after your tee shot. The best chance for the lowest possible score is to play the longest club you can. Now obviously that's not always going to be a 3 wood but hitting an 8 or 7 iron to lay up to the 100 yard mark on average is a worse idea. If you look up pgas best average proximity to the hole from 100-125 you will be shocked at how far away they are on average. Pitching or chipping gives you a much better chance at birdie or par than a 100 yard approach shot regardless of ability level.

I understand that somewhere between an 8i & 3 Wood is the shot to play.

Basically the highest % shot that will get you as close to the green.

Maybe I misunderstood Saevel25 earlier, but I'm pretty sure that he was saying that a high HC should be aiming for the green in 2 (on a par 5) if they have the distance to do so, and if there wasn't any big danger ahead such as water etc. What I understood was he thinks that: if there isn't much danger then go for the distance all the time.

What I was saying was: Even if the hole may not have water etc... A High HC can create danger on what my seem a fairly safe hole by taking out a 3 wood and slicing it 30 yards...thus finding/creating danger when there wasn't really any to begin with.

On a par 5 with little danger, if I'm 220 out, there is no point in me going for a 3 wood.

A 4i will go a lot straighter for me, it should go about 190... I'll take my 30 yard chip.

A 3 hybrid would get me 10-15 yards further but I'm far more likely to have a bad shot with that... I could find danger even on a relative easy hole.

I "could" hit the green with a 3 wood, maybe about 20% of the time, the trouble I get myself in for the other 80% of the time isn't worth it... sometimes it will be ok, but sometimes it will be a card wrecker.

EDIT: I re-read his posts and I think I took a few sentences out of context.

I think he would tell me to hit the 4i above

[14ledo81]

How about topping the three wood 30 yards for "creating your own danger". I have done that numerous times on par 5's, and that is the primary reason I grab my hybrid or iron for my second.

[saevel25]

Maybe I misunderstood Saevel25 earlier, but I'm pretty sure that he was saying that a high HC should be aiming for the green in 2 (on a par 5) if they have the distance to do so, and if there wasn't any big danger ahead such as water etc.

Well I always consider OB left or right trouble as well. if you know a miss is right or a straight dead pull left. Then take a shorter club. I am not saying they have to for 2, what I am saying is advance it as far as possible with in reason. The myth that everyone thinks is, "Lay up to your favorite yardage". When in actuality that you have a better shot at getting the ball closer to the pin the closer you are to the green. There is no magical spike in percentage for hitting a full 9 iron compared to hitting a pitch shot. Not even on the pro level when they have their irons dialed in for distance.

How about topping the three wood 30 yards for "creating your own danger". I have done that numerous times on par 5's, and that is the primary reason I grab my hybrid or iron for my second.

Yep then hit you hybrid or long iron.

[hopefulhacker]

Yip, I think we are in agreement. I certainly don't subscribe to laying up to a favourite yardage. Getting it as close as possible is the way... BUT (not disagreeing, just expanding on a point) ...From my experience "advancing it as far as possible within reason" for a high HC'er normally leads to that golfer not understanding the "within reason" part.... And they (we) probably add 2 clubs to this "within reason" zone. I think that if there was a hypothetical situation that stopped all Bogey golfers attempting Par 5's in 2, I think scores would dramatically improve. All this said, I'll probably go for a Par 5 in 2 next weekend. :(

[rustyredcab]

I change that to "don't follow a bad shot with a stupid shot.

+1

My goal is to make my bad shot, or bad break, cost me ONE stroke -- not 2, 3, or 4. I try to tell myself that it is the same as missing a putt. When I miss a putt, I don't feel the urge to attempt the "shoot of my life" on they next tee. Similarly, I try to remind myself that, for example, when I draw an awful lie in the rough, it is not the time to try that hybrid from 220 out that needs to clear the ditch and land softly without hooking OB. Standing over that ball, the bad lie has cost me one stroke. Playing stupid, could turn that into three or more with one swing.

[cuzcapri]

because im not a long ball hitter on par 5's and some of the longer par 's on my course i have to remind myself don't go for it hit the longest club you can keep in play you can still make par.

so the best tip  i can give is know your game and the course from it. dont try shots you didnt practice.