Is Golf a Sport or a Game?

[djbarnes]

It's really all subjective.  I remember when I was a kid there used to be "pro" Putt-Putt players and they had weekly televised matches, season points, etc.  Billy Packer used to commentate, in fact (jeezus, I must be getting old).  They called *that* a "sport", too.  It was certainly FAR less physically demanding than even RIDING a round of golf.

Some folks don't think driving a race car is a "sport", either.  But having done long endurance driving as well as having worn a HR monitor while doing it, *I* certainly believe it's a sport. Sure, the local circle track guys who are only racing for 20 minutes at a time and "just go round and round" don't have the same demands as those of us who have done 3 hours+ behind the wheel at one time in 90F+ conditions (which is over 110F in the car), but again, it's all relative...

--Donnie

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by Kapanda

But the level of athleticism required seems to be so low that it devalues the notion of sports as physical, competitive endeavours when grouping golf along with, say, soccer.

While that can be true, the problem with that argument is that in some of the other highly athletic sports there are incredibly fat and out of shape "athletes" that compete at a high level.  Bryant McKinnie was cut last year from an NFL team for being a fat tub-o-lard, which he had been for a couple years at least.  And in baseball there are plenty of guys who appear capable of pulling a hamstring if they don't stretch before jogging to the on-deck circle.

[tiger187126]

Originally Posted by djbarnes

It's really all subjective.  I remember when I was a kid there used to be "pro" Putt-Putt players and they had weekly televised matches, season points, etc.  Billy Packer used to commentate, in fact (jeezus, I must be getting old).  They called *that* a "sport", too.  It was certainly FAR less physically demanding than even RIDING a round of golf.

Some folks don't think driving a race car is a "sport", either.  But having done long endurance driving as well as having worn a HR monitor while doing it, *I* certainly believe it's a sport. Sure, the local circle track guys who are only racing for 20 minutes at a time and "just go round and round" don't have the same demands as those of us who have done 3 hours+ behind the wheel at one time in 90F+ conditions (which is over 110F in the car), but again, it's all relative...

--Donnie

my grandfather won one of those pro putt-putt championships. i would laugh about it, but he's a hell of a putter.

true story.

(i found a website, but i didn't see his name. he's got the paper from it still, but i always make fun of him when he misses a putt.)

[djbarnes]

Originally Posted by tiger187126

my grandfather won one of those pro putt-putt championships. i would laugh about it, but he's a hell of a putter.

true story.

(i found a website, but i didn't see his name. he's got the paper from it still, but i always make fun of him when he misses a putt.)

Well, I was a kid then and certainly couldn't afford golf, but I had my own putter and would compete in some of the league competitions they had, which were the stepping stone to pro status.  Those competitions were no joke...a perfect round was about as rare as a perfect bowling game, but in general the top pros were only three or four shots from the perfect game in each round, too.  Putt-putt was definitely a step above run-of-the-mill "miniature golf" as the holes were pretty consistent, at least.

I still remember having a few of my own higher quality putting balls, too, so when you'd play 18 you'd have to go request the "plug" for the hole.  Some ******* operators wouldn't give you one and would just make you take one of their balls for the hole to "eat", but that really sucked because those balls were TERRIBLE, even on 18 where you had to hit the snot out of the ball.  Ah the good ole days...

And now I suck at golf in general, but I am a pretty good putter as long as I read the green well, anyway.  Guess I have Putt-Putt to thank for that, just like your grandfather.

--Donnie

[x129]

Obea Moore.  When you make the list of biggest track talents to do nothing after HS he is way up the list. If you would have told me that Obea Moore and Michael Graineville would have had 0 olympic team births between them, I would have said you were crazy.

Golf is definitely lower on the physicallity scale than a lot of sports but it is still there.

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Track is a great example.  When I was in high school, a young phenom named William Obei-Moore (sp?) at 17 or so, was the fastest person I had ever seen at that age.  He qualified for the US Olympic trials which, for people that don't know the sport well, happens for a sprinter maybe once every 4 Olympics or so.  He made it to the semi-finals of the US Olympic trials before finishing in last place as a sr in high school.  That was the same year Michael Johnson set the 200m and 400m records (the latter of which still stands).  It was amazing to watch a kid I ran a relay against, performing in the Olympic trials against the fastest man in that event ever.

On another note, he is somewhat legendary, because he may have gone down as the fastest man ever, but he couldn't even success in junior college and eventually fizzled out.  Even in the below video, he (as a junior) beats a future world champion by a full half second:

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by x129

Obea Moore.  When you make the list of biggest track talents to do nothing after HS he is way up the list. If you would have told me that Obea Moore and Michael Graineville would have had 0 olympic team births between them, I would have said you were crazy.

Golf is definitely lower on the physicallity scale than a lot of sports but it is still there.

Ha, Michael Granville.  I actually competed with/against him and went to school with him at UCLA.  I actually knew his sister a little better than him, who stayed in the same dorm as me.  I think Granville's problem was his father burnt him out a bit, and he was in between events.  Once he got to the higher levels he strugged in the 800m, and he didn't have the speed to run the shorter sprints.

Back to Obea Moore.  About 4-6 years ago the NCAA championships were held in Sacramento and I attended them for the 2-3 years they were held there.  One of those years, I see a guy (about my age) walk up into the stands wearing a hoodie and take a seat a few rows up from me.  It turned out to be Obea-Moore and a few of his friends.  I didn't know how to react because it was like seeing a ghost of a celebrity or something.  Nobody else knew who he was except me.

This is still one of the most amazing track performances I can remember of his (anchor leg starts around 2:36):

There is currently a young guy named Bryshon Nellum at USC that was almost as impressive in the 200m in high school as Obea Moore was in the 400m.  He was shot in the leg 2-3 years ago as a frosh at USC and I wasn't sure if he would ever recover, but he seems to be doing well again.  Not sure if he'll ever be world class or not though.

[nosweat]

Ever talked with a professional Tennis Player?.  One with a famous name said to me in a round of golf.

"this is the hardest game I have ever played! I can blow six shots in a Tennis Match and still win. I blow ONE in golf and my day is done!

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by nosweat

Ever talked with a professional Tennis Player?.  One with a famous name said to me in a round of golf.

"this is the hardest game I have ever played! I can blow six shots in a Tennis Match and still win. I blow ONE in golf and my day is done!

That's the way I explained golf to a girl I was dating last year.  She was a college soccer player and enjoyed playing tennis competitively last year.  She kept saying on the course, "I can't believe how frustrated I get when golfing.  I never get like this in other sports."

I explained, in tennis if you hit the worst shot in your entire life, you lose one point.  You could hit it over the entire stadium, and you just lose that point/serve/whatever.  In soccer, one bad kick and you may lose that possession or attempt on goal.  In golf, if you hit the worst shot of your life (especially in stroke play), it could ruin your entire round because your next attempt is an extension if your previous attempt.  It can be demoralizing.

Kind of off-topic, I know :)

[iacas]

Did anyone catch the special yesterday on CBS before the third round of the AT&T; at Congressional? I think it was called "The Sport of Golf" and showed quite convincingly how much golfers work out, how athletic they are, etc.

[Zeph]

http://www.pgatour.com/2012/company/06/18/cbs/index.html Golf is a sport.

[Peter86]

One of the hardest sports there are.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Kapanda

Lol soo, we agree that the definition of sports is ambiguous...?

And because I couldn't resist... there is no vagueness in defining athleticism, physical ability, and skill. There really is none. Sports require a mix of both, some more than others.

I don't win tour events because I don't have the skill, not because I don't have the physical ability. My body is able to perform as well as most pros' bodies (most likely exception being Woods). But I can't use a golf club for shit. That takes skill. The same way it takes skill to make a one-handed catch in football. It's not that my body isn't able to do it, I just suck with my hands. I just took it for granted that the difference between athleticism and skill was obvious, which is why I didn't put much effort in explaining it.

I had to jump on this one, even though it's 3 weeks old.  Do you even know what the "skill" is that's required to make a golf swing correctly?  It requires coordinating just about every muscle group in your body to take back and return the clubhead to the ball with swing plane, face angle, and timing absolutely perfect to hit the ball where you intend for it to go.   If that sort of muscular control and coordination isn't a form of athleticism then It's quite useless even discussing this with you.  You think that just because anyone can walk onto a golf course and swing at a ball (note that I said "swing at", not "hit"), that disqualifies it as a sport.  Yet a dozen smoking, beer guzzling construction workers can "compete" in a softball league and they are participating in a sport?  You really haven't got a clue what golf is all about, do you?

Play competitive golf, then come back and tell me what it's all about.  Try keeping your mind focused on your game for 18 holes on a summer day when the mercury is hitting close to 100 and the humidity is more than 80%.  Tell me that you can hit the same quality of shots on 18 as you did on #1 under those conditions in a tight match with $50 on the line.  Or even with 50 cents on the line.  Or the club championship on the line.  You haven't made a shot under pressure unless you've stroked in a 5 foot putt to halve a hole with the match hanging on that shot.  Until you've played golf in that type of situation you haven't actually competed at the sport of golf, so you haven't any idea of what it takes to do so.  You've only played at the game, you haven't participated in the sport.  Just because golf can be played under less grueling conditions doesn't make it less of a sport in the wider view.

[Kapanda]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I had to jump on this one, even though it's 3 weeks old.  Do you even know what the "skill" is that's required to make a golf swing correctly?  It requires coordinating just about every muscle group in your body to take back and return the clubhead to the ball with swing plane, face angle, and timing absolutely perfect to hit the ball where you intend for it to go.   If that sort of muscular control and coordination isn't a form of athleticism then It's quite useless even discussing this with you.  You think that just because anyone can walk onto a golf course and swing at a ball (note that I said "swing at", not "hit"), that disqualifies it as a sport.  Yet a dozen smoking, beer guzzling construction workers can "compete" in a softball league and they are participating in a sport?  You really haven't got a clue what golf is all about, do you?

Play competitive golf, then come back and tell me what it's all about.  Try keeping your mind focused on your game for 18 holes on a summer day when the mercury is hitting close to 100 and the humidity is more than 80%.  Tell me that you can hit the same quality of shots on 18 as you did on #1 under those conditions in a tight match with $50 on the line.  Or even with 50 cents on the line.  Or the club championship on the line.  You haven't made a shot under pressure unless you've stroked in a 5 foot putt to halve a hole with the match hanging on that shot.  Until you've played golf in that type of situation you haven't actually competed at the sport of golf, so you haven't any idea of what it takes to do so.  You've only played at the game, you haven't participated in the sport.  Just because golf can be played under less grueling conditions doesn't make it less of a sport in the wider view.

Coordination is a skill.

And please spare us both the obnoxious self-gratifying comments in the future. If you do not feel like it is worth discussing this with me, then don't.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Kapanda

Coordination is a skill.

And please spare us both the obnoxious self-gratifying comments in the future. If you do not feel like it is worth discussing this with me, then don't.

Gotta go with Erik then.  You haven't been around golf long enough or at a high enough level to have an informed opinion.  Have a good day.

[allin]

Sorry, than I misread what you meant.  Golf certainly takes a different type of athletism than other sports and I can buy that it is at a different level. I just don't agree that Golf is not a sport at all because the athletism different or less than other sports which I now understand is not what you are saying.  You are saying it's a sport that requires a lesser amount of athletism.  That I can accept.

[quote name="dlance" url="/t/7289/is-golf-a-sport-or-a-game/342#post_728628"] MackJL06, no Disrespect intended. I have never played hockey myself. I picked it because they don't have to be able to run fast, throw hard, or  or jump high (as people seem to think are the only things that make people athletic). I was trying to us it as an example that may compare to golf of alternate sports. [/quote] [quote name="Kapanda" url="/t/7289/is-golf-a-sport-or-a-game/342#post_728854"] But the level of athleticism required seems to be so low that it devalues the notion of sports as physical, competitive endeavours when grouping golf along with, say, soccer. With that said, since I've been misinterpreted before, I should clarify that, though I don't see golf as a sport (and who cares what I think anyway), I can see how the argument for it can be made. [/quote] The case of those saying golf is not a sport really boils down to narrowing the physical requirements down to a couple golf requires less of. Different sports require different mixes. This is why there is no athlete great at every sport. Michael Jordan failed to excel at baseball. I was an excellent 400 /800 meter runner, because my athletic mix skewed that way. FWIW most basketball players are not very fast, also true of baseball. I had a 42 inch standing vertical jump but was strictly intramural material for basketball. Athletic ability comes in different sized packages. Gymnasts aren't great at basketball and basketball players aren't great gymnasts. Some don't value the subtle talents required to hit a great lob shot in golf or drop shot in Tennis. OK but that argument is really about which sport has the greatest athletes. The number of former professional football, basketball, boxers etc who play awful golf, as seen on TV, few who could beat me, a pedestrian 13 handicap, supports this. Anyone who has played multiple sports recognizes this and picks their specialty sport partly on this basis. Maybe golfers are not the greatest athletes but it is athletic and being a superior athlete is a huge advantage. If that is your argument for why golf is not a sport it is fatally flawed. Since golf seems to meet any other definition golf is definitely a sport.

[x129]

And power is athleticism. Golf requires both. I would also argue that coordination is also a result of athleticism.  Certain people are a lot better at controlling their muscles than others and I am not convinced it is all practice.

Originally Posted by Kapanda

Coordination is a skill.

And please spare us both the obnoxious self-gratifying comments in the future. If you do not feel like it is worth discussing this with me, then don't.

[Kapanda]

Originally Posted by x129

And power is athleticism. Golf requires both. I would also argue that coordination is also a result of athleticism.  Certain people are a lot better at controlling their muscles than others and I am not convinced it is all practice.

Some people better natural hand-eye coordination. I am convinced that anyone can become a [insert famous marksman here], what possibly differs is the required amount of dedication to it.

The difference between skill and athleticism is that athleticism works on/reflects physiological capacity, whereas skill works on/reflects physiological ability - i.e. how well the person is able to demonstrate his or her physiological capacity.

I have to input here the caveat that I can understand and appreciate the argument on why golf ought to be considered a sport - I have been misunderstood so often - but the athletic ability required to play at the higher levels of the game, compared to the athletic ability required to play other sports, is comparatively minimal, which is why it shouldn't be considered a sport.

[Kapanda]

Originally Posted by allin

The case of those saying golf is not a sport really boils down to narrowing the physical requirements down to a couple golf requires less of. Different sports require different mixes. This is why there is no athlete great at every sport. Michael Jordan failed to excel at baseball. I was an excellent 400 /800 meter runner, because my athletic mix skewed that way. FWIW most basketball players are not very fast, also true of baseball. I had a 42 inch standing vertical jump but was strictly intramural material for basketball. Athletic ability comes in different sized packages. Gymnasts aren't great at basketball and basketball players aren't great gymnasts. Some don't value the subtle talents required to hit a great lob shot in golf or drop shot in Tennis. OK but that argument is really about which sport has the greatest athletes. The number of former professional football, basketball, boxers etc who play awful golf, as seen on TV, few who could beat me, a pedestrian 13 handicap, supports this. Anyone who has played multiple sports recognizes this and picks their specialty sport partly on this basis. Maybe golfers are not the greatest athletes but it is athletic and being a superior athlete is a huge advantage. If that is your argument for why golf is not a sport it is fatally flawed. Since golf seems to meet any other definition golf is definitely a sport.

Obviously not a fatally flawed argument, given what you've said that I've boldened. My argument does not defeat the notion that golf ought to be considered a sport, as the argument that golf ought to be considered a sport does not defeat the notion that it should not. Nobody can even properly define sport in the first place!

My argument does rest on the comparatively little athleticism golf requires to play at the top level. It doesn't require any particularly large mix of any athletic components. It requires some athleticism, of course, but nothing tremendous.