Con Artist Swing Coaches???

[RightEdge]

I agree and have also been a victim of the so called "con artist" coaches. However, I think most of them are conning themselves as well. I would give them the benefit of the doubt that they are actually trying to help, and genuinely believe that they know how to teach golf even if they can't play that well themselves.

You should find better instructors. Ones who actually play to a decently high level. Not all good golfers can teach, but there are certainly enough good golfers that some of them (like the ones on this site) can teach well.

In regard to your 125 yard +/-10 foot statement:

If you hit your gap (50 degree) wedge within +/-10 feet 125 yards away, then you should be able to make any standard par 4 (375 yards) within 3 strokes. This would leave you 2 putts for bogey. Most of the time 10 feet would give you a little less than a 25% chance of getting par. So, on a typical course with 14 par 4 should give you on the order of 12 strokes. Par 3 and 5 similar thing. So, you should be able to make on the order of 14 to 16 over par which is something like a 12 to 14 handicap with just a wedge and putter.

Erik brought up that this figure is about 2/3 closer than the best PGA pro in this distance range.

There is also an implication that being able to hit your gap wedge 125 yards generally means that you can hit your driver on the order of 250 yards. The same swing with a properly fitted driver should give you 250 yards with a commensurate accuracy with the driver or about +/-7 yards. The usual rule of thumb is that a person who can hit a PW (47 degree) hit 120 yards (carry) can generally hit a driver 240 (carry).

Edit: agree with @mvmac.

I hate to get into these types of discussions about what a person can and can't do over and over but I will just say this.  I am seeing a LOT of guys that post their shots that are immediately "debunked" by posters on this board.  Let me say two things regarding your statement.

1.  If I'm at the driving range and have hit a bunch of balls and get dialed in on a couple of clubs it is not only NOT hard but it is sometimes even pretty easy to hit the same shot over and over.  Same club, same swing, same tempo and pretty close to the same result.  10 feet front, back, left or right is really not that hard to do if you are repeating the same swing. As I said before the reason those statistics don't really apply when talking about the pros is that they are going from Driver to maybe mid to short iron or wedges on approach shots.  That is not the same as making the same swing 30 times in a row.  I think that most all pros could make shots closer than 10 feet if they have hit 30 balls or more using the same club on a practice range.

2.  As far as that formula measuring approximate club distances for all other clubs in my bag using the 125 yd gap wedge, if I swung every club exactly the same then yes you might be close.  However, that swing that day was a well rehearsed, relaxed swing that I had been working on. I can honestly hit a gap wedge further than that if I wanted to. When I'm on the range I can get my tempo pretty dialed in because I am hitting a million balls but when I'm on a course not so much.  My tempo can be faster to too fast causing mishits or even slower than what I used on the range.This is why I don't hit hardly any GIR when I'm playing.

So basically don't use that particular shot to approximate my distances because it would not be accurate.  My distances are not consistent in any way at this point.

[RightEdge]

That is a bit off topic for this thread.  His HC is irrelevant to what is being discussed.

Good instructors are hard to find @RightEdge .  I spent a long time looking.  I took a couple of lessons from a nice guy teacher, but his instruction was confusing to me.  Your concern for this instructors approach is warranted.  I would politely decline unsolicited instruction by telling them that I was working with another instructor, which is true for me.

Thanks and I guess you may be correct.  It's kind of hard though because he owns the driving range and he will just come up to you sometimes with advice you didn't ask for. I could just go to a different range but this one in right beside the highway on my way home!

[RightEdge]

I hate to get into these types of discussions about what a person can and can't do over and over but I will just say this.  I am seeing a LOT of guys that post their shots that are immediately "debunked" by posters on this board.  Let me say two things regarding your statement.

1.  If I'm at the driving range and have hit a bunch of balls and get dialed in on a couple of clubs it is not only NOT hard but it is sometimes even pretty easy to hit the same shot over and over.  Same club, same swing, same tempo and pretty close to the same result.  10 feet front, back, left or right is really not that hard to do if you are repeating the same swing. As I said before the reason those statistics don't really apply when talking about the pros is that they are going from Driver to maybe mid to short iron or wedges on approach shots.  That is not the same as making the same swing 30 times in a row.  I think that most all pros could make shots closer than 10 feet if they have hit 30 balls or more using the same club on a practice range.

2.  As far as that formula measuring approximate club distances for all other clubs in my bag using the 125 yd gap wedge, if I swung every club exactly the same then yes you might be close.  However, that swing that day was a well rehearsed, relaxed swing that I had been working on. I can honestly hit a gap wedge further than that if I wanted to. When I'm on the range I can get my tempo pretty dialed in because I am hitting a million balls but when I'm on a course not so much.  My tempo can be faster to too fast causing mishits or even slower than what I used on the range.This is why I don't hit hardly any GIR when I'm playing.

So basically don't use that particular shot to approximate my distances because it would not be accurate.  My distances are not consistent in any way at this point.

Oh and to further clarify I have a horrible short game.  I have trouble with any shot that is not a full swing. There is that and the fact that I can't chip or putt with a crap.  Here is how a typical hole plays out for me.

425 yrd par 4

1.  Hit a good drive 275 leaving 150 yards in to flag

2.  Hit 9 iron in missing green by 30 feet left or right or short

3.  Try to chip and chunk it 10 feet

4.  Try chip again and skull it across the green

5.  Chip again and hit the edge of green 15 feet from the pin

6.  Putt attempt runs by the hole 4-5 feet

7.  Putt attempt misses  leaving inches

8.  Putt goes In the hole

Result  8 shots on a par 4.

Most likely scenario is a 6 or 7 shot double or triple bogey. Even if I hit the green it is a 3 putt bogey and sometimes even then a 4 putt double. That gentlemen is my short game.

[nevets88]

I think there's somewhat of a parallel between bad pros and someone in the corporate world who's good at his/her position and gets bumped to manager. Just because you're good at a lower level position, perhaps something more technical and less people oriented, doesn't necessarily imply that person is good at managing.

So you have a good player. Nice consistent powerful swing, great short game. Does that necessarily imply that that person is a good teacher right off the bat? IMHO, no. But that's how I would guess, based on my little pinhole of experience, people become instructors. Initially, they're probably not good instructors, unless they've been shadowing a great teacher for some time, some might get there with experience and mentors, most just kind of coast.

And great long game, bad short game. I don't buy it. IMHO, If you have a technically sound full swing, that's gonna translate to the short game.

[Phil McGleno]

Since everyones trying to be nicer to people on the forum-Iw ill not say what I might have normally said and will just tell you to practice your putting because if it is even half that bad and your full swing is even half that good you are stupid not to practice your short game.[quote name="RightEdge" url="/t/73773/con-artist-swing-coaches/18#post_973979"] Oh and to further clarify I have a horrible short game.  I have trouble with any shot that is not a full swing. There is that and the fact that I can't chip or putt with a crap.  Here is how a typical hole plays out for me. 425 yrd par 4 1.  Hit a good drive 275 leaving 150 yards in to flag 2.  Hit 9 iron in missing green by 30 feet left or right or short 3.  Try to chip and chunk it 10 feet 4.  Try chip again and skull it across the green 5.  Chip again and hit the edge of green 15 feet from the pin 6.  Putt attempt runs by the hole 4-5 feet 7.  Putt attempt misses  leaving inches 8.  Putt goes In the hole Result  8 shots on a par 4. Most likely scenario is a 6 or 7 shot double or triple bogey. Even if I hit the green it is a 3 putt bogey and sometimes even then a 4 putt double. That gentlemen is my short game. [/quote]

[iacas]

In other words, if what you suggest is true, go practice your short game. Start a My Swing thread and show us your putting stroke, your chipping stroke, etc.

[Lihu]

I hate to get into these types of discussions about what a person can and can't do over and over but I will just say this.  I am seeing a LOT of guys that post their shots that are immediately "debunked" by posters on this board.  Let me say two things regarding your statement.

1.  If I'm at the driving range and have hit a bunch of balls and get dialed in on a couple of clubs it is not only NOT hard but it is sometimes even pretty easy to hit the same shot over and over.  Same club, same swing, same tempo and pretty close to the same result.  10 feet front, back, left or right is really not that hard to do if you are repeating the same swing. As I said before the reason those statistics don't really apply when talking about the pros is that they are going from Driver to maybe mid to short iron or wedges on approach shots.  That is not the same as making the same swing 30 times in a row.  I think that most all pros could make shots closer than 10 feet if they have hit 30 balls or more using the same club on a practice range.

2.  As far as that formula measuring approximate club distances for all other clubs in my bag using the 125 yd gap wedge, if I swung every club exactly the same then yes you might be close.  However, that swing that day was a well rehearsed, relaxed swing that I had been working on. I can honestly hit a gap wedge further than that if I wanted to. When I'm on the range I can get my tempo pretty dialed in because I am hitting a million balls but when I'm on a course not so much.  My tempo can be faster to too fast causing mishits or even slower than what I used on the range.This is why I don't hit hardly any GIR when I'm playing.

So basically don't use that particular shot to approximate my distances because it would not be accurate.  My distances are not consistent in any way at this point.

Yeah, I thought about this a little bit more earlier this morning. It is true that if you repeat the same thing over and over again you can get pretty good fast at this one thing. I guess I responded as if you had made the claim that you could do this on the course.

I think the point of all this was really just why there were questions as to the repeatability of your swing while having such a high handicap.

Been through the same thing in the "Bogey golfer thread" myself, but not to this degree of accuracy and not to the distances you hit the gap wedge.

[Lihu]

Oh and to further clarify I have a horrible short game.  I have trouble with any shot that is not a full swing. There is that and the fact that I can't chip or putt with a crap.  Here is how a typical hole plays out for me.

425 yrd par 4

1.  Hit a good drive 275 leaving 150 yards in to flag

2.  Hit 9 iron in missing green by 30 feet left or right or short

3.  Try to chip and chunk it 10 feet

4.  Try chip again and skull it across the green

5.  Chip again and hit the edge of green 15 feet from the pin

6.  Putt attempt runs by the hole 4-5 feet

7.  Putt attempt misses  leaving inches

8.  Putt goes In the hole

Result  8 shots on a par 4.

Most likely scenario is a 6 or 7 shot double or triple bogey. Even if I hit the green it is a 3 putt bogey and sometimes even then a 4 putt double. That gentlemen is my short game.

Sorry for the lack of a multiple quote here.

If you are a 25 handicap, why is your typical par 4 hole length 425 yards? That would mean you are playing something like a 7000 yard course. A 25 handicap should be playing 5800 to 6000 yards. Also, a 275 yard drive is pretty much consistent with your 125 yard gap wedge, but that's a really long typical drive for a higher handicap.

BTW, I know what it feels like to have a bad short game. I just haven't devoted any time to it, and will probably play more courses this summer to get it to the level of my current "long" game.

[RightEdge]

Since everyones trying to be nicer to people on the forum-Iw ill not say what I might have normally said and will just tell you to practice your putting because if it is even half that bad and your full swing is even half that good you are stupid not to practice your short game.

I think there's somewhat of a parallel between bad pros and someone in the corporate world who's good at his/her position and gets bumped to manager. Just because you're good at a lower level position, perhaps something more technical and less people oriented, doesn't necessarily imply that person is good at managing.

So you have a good player. Nice consistent powerful swing, great short game. Does that necessarily imply that that person is a good teacher right off the bat? IMHO, no. But that's how I would guess, based on my little pinhole of experience, people become instructors. Initially, they're probably not good instructors, unless they've been shadowing a great teacher for some time, some might get there with experience and mentors, most just kind of coast.

And great long game, bad short game. I don't buy it. IMHO, If you have a technically sound full swing, that's gonna translate to the short game.

So you're saying I'm a liar?  And when did I say I had a technically sound full swing? Don't put words in my mouth.  Well here is MHO. I think there are some people on this board who because THEY cannot do something will call other people liars. That's just IMHO.

I keep hearing this logic and it makes no sense to me.  So it is impossible for a guy to hit decent drives and hit short to mid irons reasonably ok but have a horrible short game? Your reasoning is because it will translate to the short game? That is nonsense.  The short game has to be practiced just like every other part of the golf game.  If your logic was true then all the pros needed to do was learn how to hit good drives and short to mid irons.

Ok so that also implies that if you can hit good wedge shots and chips that means your swing is technically sound and it should translate to long irons, hybrids and driver? That is also not even close to being true.  I may not be a decent golfer yet but I watch a lot of golf and soak up a lot of information by reading and researching and I know bad information when I hear it. Good drives and ok short to mid irons ability do not translate to short game.

[RightEdge]

Yeah, I thought about this a little bit more earlier this morning. It is true that if you repeat the same thing over and over again you can get pretty good fast at this one thing. I guess I responded as if you had made the claim that you could do this on the course.

I think the point of all this was really just why there were questions as to the repeatability of your swing while having such a high handicap.

Been through the same thing in the "Bogey golfer thread" myself, but not to this degree of accuracy and not to the distances you hit the gap wedge.

Yea I was only talking about the practice range after hitting a bunch of balls to the same flag. Glad you see my point.

[RightEdge]

Sorry for the lack of a multiple quote here.

If you are a 25 handicap, why is your typical par 4 hole length 425 yards? That would mean you are playing something like a 7000 yard course. A 25 handicap should be playing 5800 to 6000 yards. Also, a 275 yard drive is pretty much consistent with your 125 yard gap wedge, but that's a really long typical drive for a higher handicap.

BTW, I know what it feels like to have a bad short game. I just haven't devoted any time to it, and will probably play more courses this summer to get it to the level of my current "long" game.

That is a good question. If I'm playing alone I play the white tees so par 4s are typically mid to upper 300s range, but sometimes if I'm playing with some buddies we are betting and they won't let me play from the whites. Not that it would make any difference with my bad short game and putting.

[Lihu]

So you're saying I'm a liar?  And when did I say I had a technically sound full swing? Don't put words in my mouth.  Well here is MHO. I think there are some people on this board who because THEY cannot do something will call other people liars. That's just IMHO.

I keep hearing this logic and it makes no sense to me.  So it is impossible for a guy to hit decent drives and hit short to mid irons reasonably ok but have a horrible short game? Your reasoning is because it will translate to the short game? That is nonsense.  The short game has to be practiced just like every other part of the golf game.  If your logic was true then all the pros needed to do was learn how to hit good drives and short to mid irons.

Ok so that also implies that if you can hit good wedge shots and chips that means your swing is technically sound and it should translate to long irons, hybrids and driver? That is also not even close to being true.  I may not be a decent golfer yet but I watch a lot of golf and soak up a lot of information by reading and researching and I know bad information when I hear it. Good drives and ok short to mid irons ability do not translate to short game.

There is a big difference between calling you a liar and wondering if you understand the implications of what you are saying.

Before your drive 275 comment, I was thinking that it is possible to have a 125 yard gap wedge without anything else. However, a person who typically drives 275 is a different animal.

Even with a typical 240 yard drive going into a puddle and taking a penalty stroke, I still bogeyed a par 4 hole. In fact, the typical 390 yard hole for me is usually what you stated for your typical 425 yard hole. I hit a driver and 9i/8i (for longer ones). My typical score is a bogey. I also guarantee that my short game is as bad as yours or worse, simply because I have not practiced any of it except on the course and I have not played many rounds lately.

Even my stats would be unbelievable to many of the same people, including myself. {240 yard typical drive + 120 yard PW (to +/-5 yards on the range) => 12 handicap or lower} Instead, I am roughly 18 to 19 adding in my last two rounds. However, I have just been learning to swing properly the last 4 months or so, and have not yet had a chance to develop my short game with my new swing.

So, you can see where all this doubt comes into play. It's nothing personal, so don't take it that way.

[RightEdge]

There is a big difference between calling you a liar and wondering if you understand the implications of what you are saying.

Before your drive 275 comment, I was thinking that it is possible to have a 125 yard gap wedge without anything else. However, a person who typically drives 275 is a different animal.

Even with a typical 240 yard drive going into a puddle and taking a penalty stroke, I still bogeyed a par 4 hole. In fact, the typical 390 yard hole for me is usually what you stated for your typical 425 yard hole. I hit a driver and 9i/8i (for longer ones). My typical score is a bogey. I also guarantee that my short game is as bad as yours or worse, simply because I have not practiced any of it except on the course and I have not played many rounds lately.

Even my stats would be unbelievable to many of the same people, including myself. {240 yard typical drive + 120 yard PW (to +/-5 yards on the range) => 12 handicap or lower} Instead, I am roughly 18 to 19 adding in my last two rounds. However, I have just been learning to swing properly the last 4 months or so, and have not yet had a chance to develop my short game with my new swing.

So, you can see where all this doubt comes into play. It's nothing personal, so don't take it that way.

Well I think we may have had somewhat of the same experience then. I apologize if I sound a little defensive but I had a thread a couple of weeks back when I was talking about hitting straight drives and decent iron shots and my max drive was about 300 and people here was calling me a liar.  I don't take too kindly to that because I am no liar.

Getting back to what we were discussing, I think we are similar because I only picked up a golf club 2 years ago and I could not hit anything but the ground or air. Because of that I worked solely on being able to hit my iron shots and driver for this entire 2 year period.  Now I can hit them both reasonably straight but whether or not I get great compression on every shot is a different story altogether.  So where I am now is I have never ever really practiced short game.  All I know is a full swing.  Half and 3 quarter swings throw off my timing because I have not practiced it.  Chipping is horrible and pitch shots are impossible for me.  Putting is a nightmare.  I don't know how to judge speed or break at all. If I get close to the hole it is purely by accident.

So now as some other guys suggested I will start working on pitching, chipping and putting.  Maybe I can get off this dreaded 25 handicap level.

[RightEdge]

There is a big difference between calling you a liar and wondering if you understand the implications of what you are saying.

Before your drive 275 comment, I was thinking that it is possible to have a 125 yard gap wedge without anything else. However, a person who typically drives 275 is a different animal.

Even with a typical 240 yard drive going into a puddle and taking a penalty stroke, I still bogeyed a par 4 hole. In fact, the typical 390 yard hole for me is usually what you stated for your typical 425 yard hole. I hit a driver and 9i/8i (for longer ones). My typical score is a bogey. I also guarantee that my short game is as bad as yours or worse, simply because I have not practiced any of it except on the course and I have not played many rounds lately.

Even my stats would be unbelievable to many of the same people, including myself. {240 yard typical drive + 120 yard PW (to +/-5 yards on the range) => 12 handicap or lower} Instead, I am roughly 18 to 19 adding in my last two rounds. However, I have just been learning to swing properly the last 4 months or so, and have not yet had a chance to develop my short game with my new swing.

So, you can see where all this doubt comes into play. It's nothing personal, so don't take it that way.

I think that is what bugs me sometimes because I see these threads where members immediately attack someone when somebody posts those numbers. It drives me nuts because hitting a pitching wedge or a gap wedge to 120 is not even a hard swing. And 240 driver is also not hard to do at all. I was watching the LPGA Major this past weekend and I saw Michelle Wie hit a 270 yard drive. People are gonna say "Well it's Michelle Wie". Whatever man, Michelle Wie is a great ball striker and great golfer but anybody that says that she can hit a 270 yard drive and I (an ex athlete) can't is gonna get an argument everytime. lol.

I was told I was lying by several people on this board. I'm relatively the same size as Keegan Bradley and Dustin Johnson and as athletic as either one but THEY can crush a golf ball 360 yards but I can't muscle one to 300? These people are not super-human and most likely no stronger or faster than other athletes of similar stature that keep in shape.  The difference is their ability to consistently put the sweet spot of the club face on the ball time and time again. They can hit 360 yard drives over and over because of correct ball contact and we can't.  But don't say (not you) somebody here CAN'T make a 300 yard drive.  That is ridiculous and complete and utter nonsense.

Now if you are 65 years old (no offense) to you, then yes maybe you or your foursome may not be able to get these distances but to say that someone in their 20s, 30s or 40s can't is just being biased.

Again, I'm speaking generally about this type of discussion, not addressing you.

[iacas]

Again, I'm speaking generally about this type of discussion, not addressing you.

It's also pretty off topic for this thread (your own thread), so let's all do a better job of sticking to the title topic, please.

[Lihu]

Well I think we may have had somewhat of the same experience then. I apologize if I sound a little defensive but I had a thread a couple of weeks back when I was talking about hitting straight drives and decent iron shots and my max drive was about 300 and people here was calling me a liar.  I don't take too kindly to that because I am no liar.

Getting back to what we were discussing, I think we are similar because I only picked up a golf club 2 years ago and I could not hit anything but the ground or air. Because of that I worked solely on being able to hit my iron shots and driver for this entire 2 year period.  Now I can hit them both reasonably straight but whether or not I get great compression on every shot is a different story altogether.  So where I am now is I have never ever really practiced short game.  All I know is a full swing.  Half and 3 quarter swings throw off my timing because I have not practiced it.  Chipping is horrible and pitch shots are impossible for me.  Putting is a nightmare.  I don't know how to judge speed or break at all. If I get close to the hole it is purely by accident.

So now as some other guys suggested I will start working on pitching, chipping and putting.  Maybe I can get off this dreaded 25 handicap level.

Under some very specific conditions, I also hit a couple 300 yard drives in my life, but my average drive is something like 220 (typical is 240-250 poking some out to 270 now and then). Some days I hit 260 yard drives all day, some days I hit 230 yard drives or less. It all depends upon the conditions. The average drive also includes those 100 yard toppers. So, there is a big difference between maximum, typical and average distances.

We are probably more or less in the same situation, except that I have started learning with the 5SK drills. I'm not trying to "sell" you on it, but the drills do work very well.

You can look up all the 5SK threads, and even start Evolvr if you want to spend money. Erik already suggested that you start a MySwing video thread and all the experts on this forum can help you out.

I can say that my long game has gone from iffy to my recent best GIR of 50%  in one round in about 4 months of learning.

Spend some time reading those threads, and post your videos. Take advantage of all the good information here.

If you do get lessons or do Evolvr, I can comfortably say that you will earn the money back when you beat your friends.

Sorry, back to the topic.

[newtogolf]

We have a guy like the OP described at my local driving range.  He walks up and down the range hawking for new customers by offering swing tips and advice to people.  He created some cheaply made DVD's that he hands to people after he gives a few tips and tells them that he usually sells them for $49 but they can buy it today for $20.

The whole experience is very awkward as he uses a very hard sell approach to convince people he's discovered Hogan's secret.  He gets people to hit balls based on his instructions and once they hit a decent shot, he emphasizes how by watching the DVD and working with him, they could hit every shot like that.

I've even seen him ask for money after he's spent 20 - 30 minutes with someone unsolicited.  Once they hit a few balls consistently, he'll tell them they can give him $50 for today or sign up for 5 1/2 hour lessons for $200.

[boogielicious]

@RightEdge ,

You can practice pitching and half shots at the range too.  If you see this guy again, change to doing these types of shots and maybe he won't bug you.  Sounds like you have done good work on your long game and now should spend a little more time on the short game.  Are there any courses nearby that have practice greens?