Evolution of High Launch and Low Spin

[saevel25]

what is AoA and Moi really do?

sorry if this may be off topic but I have to ask.

last year I used a xhot 10.5. it got the ball in the air for me very well, but I hit it towards the heel a lot.

this year I went to my pro because the xhot was just to high in flight and there was no roll, so we worked on my swing and shafts. even with a better swing heel shots would creep back into my game. we worked on numbers at this point, and changed shafts by the time we got to a shaft that got my numbers decent and a lot more center of face, I noticed there was a i25 sitting in his shop, so I asked him I I could take it for a spin.

at this point we turned on the machine and looked at the numbers.

my xhot still not very center hits was spinning in the 3000 range and up.

when I hit the i25 I almost fell over from the feel. center top hit spin rate 2500 ish.

I was able to to stay in the 2000 range and hit more center to toe with the i25. I wish I remember my other numbers but all I rember is spin and distance.

what in these 2 clubs would make me hit one better then the other?

Angle of attack, when positive for a driver reduces spin, and increases launch angle. This will increase carry distance.

MOI is the resistance of the club turning due to the ball striking the club, and basically makes the club more forgiving on off center hits.

[motsco]

thanks, why wouldn't everybody be using a 15* driver with high moi? I would figure most 80 to 90+ golfers have a low aoi. so they need the loft. so why would lofting up help a pro? (as the TM numbers show) I figure pros can hit up on the ball. I would think 90% of them could call their shots. to me it seems like TM is doing what used to be done but backwards.? to make it new?

[saevel25]

thanks,

why wouldn't everybody be using a 15* driver with high moi?

I would figure most 80 to 90+ golfers have a low aoi. so they need the loft. so why would lofting up help a pro? (as the TM numbers show) I figure pros can hit up on the ball. I would think 90% of them could call their shots.

to me it seems like TM is doing what used to be done but backwards.? to make it new?

Most High Handicap players hit down with their driver. Some PGA tour players still do. Hitting up just optimizes launch conditions for more distance.

Because 15 degree drivers don't fit everyone. It also depends on the shaft. Also having the MOI further back makes it hard to move the CG lower, which is needed for really low spinning drivers. That is why, TM moved the sliding weight forward. It did lower the MOI, but not to drastic really. I don't find it that much less forgiving. I do think some toe and heel hits do bend more, that is part of it. The lower the MOI the more gear effect there is. But the ball also starts right more on toe hits. The distance loss isn't too bad either.

If the CG isn't low enough then it wont take off enough spin to raise the loft to 15. The problem is, with 15 degrees of loft, you can produce too much spin and loose distance. The key is HIGH launch and LOW spin.

[motsco]

thanks, not challenging you, but why do some people hit their 3 4 5 woods just as or almost as far as their driver? please don't say they don't I have seen it in pros to hacks. I have experienced it myself. would that be angle of attack or moi ?

[saevel25]

That is just not enough loft to maximize carry distance.

[motsco]

That is just not enough loft to maximize carry distance.

thanks.

[motsco]

has anybody here ever had the actual loft of your drivers checked or measured ?

[saevel25]

To me it doesn't really matter. I got my club fitted for me, so I know that the launch numbers are close to were I want them. Also the loft printed isn't the loft delivered at impact. Your swing + the golf shaft can influence that number a lot.

[Jakester23]

To me it doesn't really matter. I got my club fitted for me, so I know that the launch numbers are close to were I want them. Also the loft printed isn't the loft delivered at impact. Your swing + the golf shaft can influence that number a lot.

I know this is a little OT but do you feel like that adjustable weight on the SLDR does much of anything for the gear affect or the closure rate? I was just curious if that was their way if trying to make up for what they might have lost in changing the MOI.

[saevel25]

I know this is a little OT but do you feel like that adjustable weight on the SLDR does much of anything for the gear affect or the closure rate? I was just curious if that was their way if trying to make up for what they might have lost in changing the MOI.

Nope, it is only a 20 gram weight. It would do little in terms of keeping the face open or closed. All it does is move the CG a bit to the right or left, increasing gear effect.

I don't think so, I just think it is something adjustable they wanted to put in there. I don't think it would help with loss of MOI. I believe TM wanted was to make a club more forgiving with vertical MOI. They did that by making the sweetspot extend lower. TM claimed that amateurs miss the ball lower on the clubface.

[mvmac]

what in these 2 clubs would make me hit one better then the other?

The i25 is just designed to lower the spin more than the XHot. With the same loft, the i25 will probably launch a little lower as well.

would that be angle of attack or moi ?

That is just not enough loft to maximize carry distance.

Correct, the 3 wood has more loft and they can "get away" with hitting down.

[Jeremie Boop]

Were you mis hitting it low on the face? Or towards the heel?

Hard to say, it's been several days since. If I had to guess based on typical shots, a little low and towards the heel but nothing really bad off center wise usually.

[atrapasuenos]

Glad that I found this thread!

As sent Mike a PM yesterday asking something about this cause yesterday at the range the guys from Bridgestone where doing their famous ball fitting and I decided to try.

My driver as my sig says is a 905R, so from some years ago, 9.5°.

I took the usual ball that I play, the ProV1x hit three shots and got (I don't remeber very well cause din't pay full attention)

1) Club Head Speed: 127.8 mph Launch Angle: 9.0° and Spin Rate around 4,200 but definitely above 4,000. Carry distance: 276 yards. They told me that the simulator was balanced at sea level so you have to add 10% more but let's take that out of the equation. After this the thought crossed my mind: "I'm hitting 'down' with my driver".

The next two attempts were:

Club Head Speed: 127.8 mph Launch Angle 9.0° and Spin Rate 4,100 rpms and Carry Distance: 283 yards.

Then they gave me the Bridgestone e7. What I found interesting is that in the 6 attempts my club head speed was the same 127.8, well a slight variation after the 127.xx but I think that's good, right? Launch Angle was the same but the spin rate in two of them was 3,600 rpms or somewhere around there and ended with a carry distance of 283 yards. But the one that kept on my mind was one with the same conditions but the spin rate got down to 2,050 rpms and endes with a carry distance of 309 yards.

They guy told me that the ball is helping to lower the spin but according to the simulator the ball trajectory it's still like 10 or 15 yards above the ideal. He said to me that I should look for an X-Stiff shaft but then I think that the problem is my swing not the club shaft.

As I said, I do not remeber well the number, I put attention to the carry distance and club head speed, the others I just gave them a quick glance, my bad.

Would like to hear your thoughts.

Thanks!

[mvmac]

Glad that I found this thread!

As sent Mike a PM yesterday asking something about this cause yesterday at the range the guys from Bridgestone where doing their famous ball fitting and I decided to try.

My driver as my sig says is a 905R, so from some years ago, 9.5°.

I took the usual ball that I play, the ProV1x hit three shots and got (I don't remeber very well cause din't pay full attention)

1) Club Head Speed: 127.8 mph Launch Angle: 9.0° and Spin Rate around 4,200 but definitely above 4,000. Carry distance: 276 yards. They told me that the simulator was balanced at sea level so you have to add 10% more but let's take that out of the equation. After this the thought crossed my mind: "I'm hitting 'down' with my driver".

The next two attempts were:

Club Head Speed: 127.8 mph Launch Angle 9.0° and Spin Rate 4,100 rpms and Carry Distance: 283 yards.

Then they gave me the Bridgestone e7. What I found interesting is that in the 6 attempts my club head speed was the same 127.8, well a slight variation after the 127.xx but I think that's good, right? Launch Angle was the same but the spin rate in two of them was 3,600 rpms or somewhere around there and ended with a carry distance of 283 yards. But the one that kept on my mind was one with the same conditions but the spin rate got down to 2,050 rpms and endes with a carry distance of 309 yards.

They guy told me that the ball is helping to lower the spin but according to the simulator the ball trajectory it's still like 10 or 15 yards above the ideal. He said to me that I should look for an X-Stiff shaft but then I think that the problem is my swing not the club shaft.

As I said, I do not remeber well the number, I put attention to the carry distance and club head speed, the others I just gave them a quick glance, my bad.

Would like to hear your thoughts.

Thanks!

Just responded to your PM but I'll ask basically the same questions.

If you're swinging at 128mph, you definitely need a stiffer shaft.

Any idea what your angle of attack is?

The guy told you that a launch angle of 9 degrees was too high (10-15 yards)?

[atrapasuenos]

Just responded to your PM but I'll ask basically the same questions.

If you're swinging at 128mph, you definitely need a stiffer shaft.

Any idea what your angle of attack is?

The guy told you that a launch angle of 9 degrees was too high (10-15 yards)?

No idea about my angle of attack.

About the launch angle, nope but because of the rpm's the ball goes way too high. 10-15 yards above the "ideal". That's what the monitor said. When I played in Aguascalientes, the local pro used to say to me that with my driver I was going to put in orbit the ball because it goes very high.

With all my clubs playing into the wind for me it's suffering. I have to hit 2 or even 3 more clubs because my ball goes way up into the sky.

[saevel25]

No idea about my angle of attack.

About the launch angle, nope but because of the rpm's the ball goes way too high. 10-15 yards above the "ideal". That's what the monitor said. When I played in Aguascalientes, the local pro used to say to me that with my driver I was going to put in orbit the ball because it goes very high.

With all my clubs playing into the wind for me it's suffering. I have to hit 2 or even 3 more clubs because my ball goes way up into the sky.

Sounds like you are hitting down a lot on the ball. Low initial launch, high overall flight, short yardage. That just screams negative angle of attack.

[mvmac]

Sounds like you are hitting down a lot on the ball. Low initial launch, high overall flight, short yardage. That just screams negative angle of attack.

@atrapasuenos , there is a good chance you're hitting down with your driver. Low initial launch and high spin are characteristics of a negative attack angle.

Good thread to check out.

[atrapasuenos]

Sounds like you are hitting down a lot on the ball. Low initial launch, high overall flight, short yardage. That just screams negative angle of attack.

Yup.

@atrapasuenos, there is a good chance you're hitting down with your driver. Low initial launch and high spin are characteristics of a negative attack angle.

Good thread to check out.

I was checking that thread yesterday.