I'd Be Scratch with a Better Mental Game

[iacas]

36 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

The point? The first guy thinks most of the other guys are better than he is. Technically they are, but in ability they are not close.

He under-estimates his potential. There are other guys who over-estimate their potential.

Those other guys are better, as you said. They shoot lower scores.

The first guy is not the golfer who hits the good shots. Those are the anomalies. Potential is another thing entirely.

[Big Lex]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

Those other guys are better, as you said. They shoot lower scores.

The first guy is not the golfer who hits the good shots. Those are the anomalies. Potential is another thing entirely.

A guy who says "I'd be scratch if....." is talking about his potential. That's why I told the story, and it's why I asked about his club head speed, etc. What is the point of this thread? I am pretty sure you posted the story to illustrate another example of the way people "con" themselves. I suppose you are implying that he is an example of a person who needs instruction, because he has a totally unrealistic idea about what he is doing.

"Conning yourself" is a way of saying you hold an incorrect self-belief, and that you are clinging to this belief against facts in evidence. I am pointing out that this phenomenon works both ways. There are people who overestimate themselves, and others who underestimate themselves. And there are some who have a realistic idea about what their capabilities might be. I was simply trying to get a sense of which type of guy you played with that day. I don't think the comments are irrelevant. If you think they are, then just delete them.  

[mvmac]

1 hour ago, Big Lex said:

I was simply trying to get a sense of which type of guy you played with that day.

Most likely the guy is on the "con" side of the spectrum, hence the point of the thread. Also it's a common thing with golfers that they overestimate (to a large degree) the importance of the mental game. They think "nerves" hurt them from playing well or achieving their potential, a lot of it is bs IMO. The pros aren't born with better control of their nerves than the rest of us, they still get emotional/nervous, their hands still shake on really important putts. 

I'd be "nervous" too if I was inconsistent with being able to hit solid shots or if I had a tendency to skull/duff pitches. Good players hit it solid because of their solid mechanics, not because they have superior control of their nerves.

[Big Lex]

5 minutes ago, mvmac said:

Most likely the guy is on the "con" side of the spectrum, hence the point of the thread. Also it's a common thing with golfers that they overestimate (to a large degree) the importance of the mental game. They think "nerves" hurt them from playing well or achieving their potential, a lot of it is bs IMO. The pros aren't born with better control of their nerves than the rest of us, they still get emotional/nervous, their hands still shake on really important putts. 

I'd be "nervous" too if I was inconsistent with being able to hit solid shots or if I had a tendency to skull/duff pitches. Players that hit it solid have solid mechanics.

I think I understand what you are saying, but that's not really what I was getting at.

By the "con" side you mean he is overestimating himself. I agree.

I think the point of the thread is that he is overestimating how good his actual physical game is....he thinks he strikes it well enough to win, and believes the cause of the bad results is simply nerves or whatever. And @iacas is saying that that's crap. It isn't his thinking, it's his swing.

I get that.

But within the universe of people doing this, there are some who DO have the potential to be good players, and others that don't. I'm not saying we can always know, but usually we can get a hint. Club head speed is a big thing, as is the quality of the hits of the good iron shots. These things speak to potential. You can "con" yourself but have a high ceiling, just as you can con yourself but have a low ceiling.

[pumaAttack]

3 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

I think I understand what you are saying, but that's not really what I was getting at.

By the "con" side you mean he is overestimating himself. I agree.

I think the point of the thread is that he is overestimating how good his actual physical game is....he thinks he strikes it well enough to win, and believes the cause of the bad results is simply nerves or whatever. And @iacas is saying that that's crap. It isn't his thinking, it's his swing.

I get that.

But within the universe of people doing this, there are some who DO have the potential to be good players, and others that don't. I'm not saying we can always know, but usually we can get a hint. Club head speed is a big thing, as is the quality of the hits of the good iron shots. These things speak to potential. You can "con" yourself but have a high ceiling, just as you can con yourself but have a low ceiling.

Yup.

This thread is trying to deal in absolutes about one round for one person.   There are other factors at play and too simply dismiss them is detrimental to the discussion.  

 

[iacas]

4 hours ago, Big Lex said:

What is the point of this thread?

It's not to talk about potential. It's to point out that people are often way, way off base. They want to think that it's just some simple easy thing - like "if I can just fix the mental aspect of the game" (which, to that particular player, included his pre-shot routine) - when it is really so, so much more work than that.

4 hours ago, Big Lex said:

I suppose you are implying that he is an example of a person who needs instruction, because he has a totally unrealistic idea about what he is doing.

I'm not implying it. I'm flat out saying that his swing sucks, and he could improve his mental game and he'd still shoot… in the 90s.

4 hours ago, Big Lex said:

There are people who overestimate themselves, and others who underestimate themselves.

In golf, few under-estimate themselves. In fact, in all of sports, few under-estimate themselves. Nearly everyone thinks they're better than they are, or could be significantly better with a little of the right kind of effort.

4 hours ago, Big Lex said:

I was simply trying to get a sense of which type of guy you played with that day.

The guy is like the vast majority of golfers. They think they're one easy thing away from remarkably better play.

3 hours ago, Big Lex said:

But within the universe of people doing this, there are some who DO have the potential to be good players, and others that don't.

This thread is not about potential. That guy could be a low single digit player too. But he's not going to get there by improving his mental game. If this thread is about potential, it's about how difficult it is to realize it, and how many golfers think they're going to get there with some easy little thing.

3 hours ago, pumaAttack said:

This thread is trying to deal in absolutes about one round for one person.   There are other factors at play and too simply dismiss them is detrimental to the discussion.  

I disagree. This is the majority of golfers. The majority think they're one simple thing away from remarkable improvement when they're not.

[pumaAttack]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

I disagree. This is the majority of golfers. The majority think they're one simple thing away from remarkable improvement when they're not.

No one I golf with thinks they are one simple thing away from vast improvement.  They all know golf is hard and enjoy that challenge.  Maybe you are over simplifying this.  People like to get better but to discredit a person because they think a better mental game would help them doesn't do much to serve them.  

In fact, you have NO IDEA what his mental game is.  You do not know his thoughts and feelings and how they could absolutely help him.  Not sure how your way of thinking is supposed to improve his game or anybody else for that matter.  

[saevel25]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

In golf, few under-estimate themselves. In fact, in all of sports, few under-estimate themselves. Nearly everyone thinks they're better than they are, or could be significantly better with a little of the right kind of effort.

One of the few things I've realized over the past few years. I might say the line is drawn with golfers who actually do meaningful practice over just staying stagnant or never attempted to really get to a lower handicap. Once you realize the work you need to put in to get better. You start to realize just how damn hard this game is. 

5 minutes ago, pumaAttack said:

 People like to get better but to discredit a person because they think a better mental game would help them doesn't do much to serve them.

Most golfers think or want a quick fix to their game. The number of members on this forum who have flaked out over the years because they realized there is no quick fix. 

I've heard a few times from players say something similar to this, "If I only putted better I would be a way better player." Then he goes and hits balls OB and duff's shots. It's that, "Only if" mentality that will pretty much guarantee they will suck forever. That sort of thinking can be expanded to those who think all they need to do is concentrate more. The ones who think the few blow up holes are because they had a mental lapse and don't realize their swings suck. 

There should be a Golfer's Anonymous group. The first step is to accept they suck and to accept their current way of thinking about what they need to do to improve is wrong. 

[iacas]

27 minutes ago, pumaAttack said:

No one I golf with thinks they are one simple thing away from vast improvement.

I'm willing to put my experience having taught thousands of golfers, and having interacted with ten to one hundred times as many, over the years of owning The Sand Trap against yours.

The vast majority thinks that if they do one or two simple things, they'll be dramatically better. In many it seems to be an ego protection mechanism of sorts. Like "I could be a lot better if I do this one simple thing… I just haven't gotten around to it, but I can, trust me, and it's not too hard. If I really wanted to be, I could be a lot better."

27 minutes ago, pumaAttack said:

People like to get better but to discredit a person because they think a better mental game would help them doesn't do much to serve them.  

Yes it does.

27 minutes ago, pumaAttack said:

In fact, you have NO IDEA what his mental game is.

Yes I do. We talked about it, I've played with him many times, and he used to take lessons before he thought he "learned it all" and went of on his own and stopped practicing.

27 minutes ago, pumaAttack said:

You do not know his thoughts and feelings and how they could absolutely help him.  Not sure how your way of thinking is supposed to improve his game or anybody else for that matter.  

By making people aware of certain realities.

Improving his mental game was not going to take 30 strokes off his game.

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, pumaAttack said:

Not sure how your way of thinking is supposed to improve his game or anybody else for that matter.  

The main thing I think is that you need to know you always need to improve.

[mvmac]

2 hours ago, pumaAttack said:

In fact, you have NO IDEA what his mental game is.  You do not know his thoughts and feelings and how they could absolutely help him.  Not sure how your way of thinking is supposed to improve his game or anybody else for that matter.  

@iacas is saying the guy has to stop conning himself and work on the things that will actually improve his handicap. It's pretty simple.

[pumaAttack]

11 minutes ago, Lihu said:

The main thing I think is that you need to know you always need to improve.

I guess.  But not sure why knocking somebody for saying they need to work on their mental game is supposed to help them.

So when somebody says "I would be scratch if I could just hit the ball better" are we supposed to mock them too?

[iacas]

Just now, pumaAttack said:

I guess.  But not sure why knocking somebody for saying they need to work on their mental game is supposed to help them.

Asked and answered.

1 minute ago, mvmac said:

@iacas is saying the guy has to stop conning himself and work on the things that will actually improve his handicap. It's pretty simple.

Furthermore, nobody is "mocking" anyone here. Someone's being used an an example. 

[pumaAttack]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

Asked and answered.

Furthermore, nobody is "mocking" anyone here. Someone's being used an an example. 

I bet the golfer in question would disagree with you.  Not a great tone in this thread.

[iacas]

10 minutes ago, pumaAttack said:

I bet the golfer in question would disagree with you. Not a great tone in this thread.

The golfer in the OP is conning himself. That's the point.

On May 12, 2014 at 5:28 PM, iacas said:

At some point (I believe on hole 12), he tells me "I would be a scratch golfer if I could just have a good mental game."

I could not hold it in any more, and said "no, you wouldn't. C'mon. Be honest with yourself."

That's not mocking under any definition.

[pumaAttack]

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

The golfer in the OP is conning himself. That's the point.

That's not mocking under any definition.

The whole premise of the thread is basically the definition of mocking....

Quote

To treat with ridicule or contempt; deride: was mocked for contradicting himself; mocked her superficialunderstanding of the issues. 

 

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, pumaAttack said:

The whole premise of the thread is basically the definition of mocking....

Nope. I didn't ridicule or deride him. I told him the truth. I didn't make fun of him - not once. I used him as an example of someone conning himself, and told him to his face that he was hurting his chances of actually improving if he wanted to con himself into thinking that he'd shave 30 strokes by improving his mental game.

You're reading something into this which does not exist.

Now, back to the actual topic, please, Tony.

[mvmac]

27 minutes ago, pumaAttack said:

So when somebody says "I would be scratch if I could just hit the ball better" are we supposed to mock them too?

That person would be correct the vast majority of the time and nobody is being mocked. The player's understanding of why he shoots in the 90's is flawed.

I sure hope if I made statements like that or thought similarly that some one would correct me.