Is it time for a real-world alternative to the USGA?

[iacas]

Yes but local government can still embark on many substantive initiatives within the governmental framework. State golf associations can do the same. I've had completely different answers/ responses to the same questions to know that they have latitude to do so, and I'm not sure I've ever encountered any of the States, or even the larger geographic regional conglomorations hiding behind the central USGA for the reason they can't do things

So again, your issue seems to be with the regional associations, not the USGA.

What's wrong with celebrating the history of the game? I certainly don't get the impression that their intent is to do so to the exclusion of anything else.

You keep saying that they should be "looking to the future". What makes you think that they aren't? What specifically do you think that they should be doing that they aren't?

Yeah…

@FarawayFairways , they accomplish that goal (one of many they list) largely by having the USGA Museum. http://www.usgamuseum.com . It's not like they're devoting serious capital, time, etc. to "celebrating the history of the game."

[FarawayFairways]

What's wrong with celebrating the history of the game? I certainly don't get the impression that their intent is to do so to the exclusion of anything else.

You keep saying that they should be "looking to the future". What makes you think that they aren't? What specifically do you think that they should be doing that they aren't?

There's a whole host of things, some of which I've tried to introduce but have probably been lost amongst people talking about the price of cart hire being the answer. I still think there's scope for a coast to coast city based matchplay event of some description that could last 3-4 hours as a 'fast format' but that might actually exist in some shape or form already?

The first thing to recognise I think is that centralised command and control rarely works any longer (unless its in China). The USGA will continually struggle to develop the game so long as they sit in the middle handing out diktat.

The whole structure needs reforming with those more dynamic State GA's being allowed to get on with things and develop the game according to their states needs, which can often be different to the central apparatchiks. Having said that, the centralised USGA needs to have oversight with sanction in order to avoid corruption, and also disseminate good practise and reward.

There's no magic single solution, it's a combination of small interventions spread over different temporal horizons

In some cases however they could do some simple things that I don't believe would be asking too much, like answer telephones or read email. I should say those on the west coast are pretty good whereas I've taken to using posted letters for places like the Mid West now. I do think this could be a throw back to the single point of contact Fordism, where if you can't get the one person dedicated to that task, then that's it. Having said that, when you compare the golf industry to the normally excellent multi skilled service you get from California's IT industry it simply can't be cultural, it has to be endemic to the industry

As regards other specifics that you ask for, well I'm afraid I mainly view things through my own primary interest and involvement. Can i share that experience with you though? No.

Why? Because I get PM's off you Dave threatening me with being banned for spaming

Not a lot I can do then really is there?. I think under the circumstances you can't really ask me to expand with examples and then scream spam the moment I do.

[jamo]

The whole structure needs reforming with those more dynamic State GA's being allowed to get on with things and develop the game according to their states needs, which can often be different to the central apparatchiks. Having said that, the centralised USGA needs to have oversight with sanction in order to avoid corruption, and also disseminate good practise and reward.

So what can the sate golf associations not do that they should be able to do?

[FarawayFairways]

As I said Jamo, I think there's a few things, but allow me to try another angle

If I can see a few possibilities (I emphasise the word possibility) as I wouldn't pretend to have magic bullet solutions, and I'm quite sure the States have got a better appreciation of their situation than my cold eyed outsiders view etc But if I can see a few possibilities based on my own area interests, imagine what else might be possible if everyone with all the numerous different interests that golf embraces were given the oxygen to air them, and the States the autonomy to get on with it

What is undeniable though, and I'm sure I saw some NGF figures for the last decade only this week, is that the number of annual rounds being played in the States is falling incrementally

I recently recieved an email from a State GA (who I won't name for obvious reasons) but I'll reproduce it.

The email was in repsonse to a specific proposal that would benefit the States members, and in the medium term their clubs (and me of course - lets not pretend otherwise)

"Thanks for the email and information. While I think there are probably some groups of Americans who would relish the challenge, we can't help you get the word out for your project.

I wish you the best of luck in your endeavor."

Roughly translated I'd say "relish" is a strong word? and there is acknowledgement that some American's would want to do this (hardly speculative spam is it?). Who benefits? Me - well yes, of course I do, I have motive so lets get that out front. The American participant/ association member? - well hopefully, unless we really screw up!!! and given that return business should flow back, so again therefore would a few host clubs in the US.

Who doesn't benefit? The Golf Association I'd suggest? So they won't help (even though it need only take them an hour) because the benefits are being felt elsewhere

Now if I expaned on any of these, i fall into breach your spam rules, which is a shame as America used to be very good, nay, it was better than very good, it led the world in communicating, but now its in retreat in this field. Luckily however, you haven't lost that sense of 'positivity' yet, which still comes across when you can actually do make contact with an American. In that respect you're nearly always uplifting people to deal with (much better than "can't do Europe") but actually getting in contact is hard

[iacas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FarawayFairways

Now if I expaned on any of these, i fall into breach your spam rules, which is a shame as America used to be very good, nay, it was better than very good, it led the world in communicating, but now its in retreat in this field. Luckily however, you haven't lost that sense of 'positivity' yet, which still comes across when you can actually do make contact with an American. In that respect you're nearly always uplifting people to deal with (much better than "can't do Europe") but actually getting in contact is hard

So… You don't live in the United States, and you should probably stop talking about the USGA, the state golf associations, etc. You seem to be basing your entire opinion of the USGA's "failings" on how receptive the state golf associations or the USGA is to your commercial idea. You're not speaking from a position of wanting what's best for golf - you're speaking from a position of wanting what's best for you, and you don't like that others (USGA and regional Golf Associations) don't seem to agree with you about your commercial idea.

Not letting you spam the forum with links to your commercial endeavor is not failing to "lead in communicating" - it's stopping you from spamming. You could pay the $399 to become a Sponsor, or pay more to do even more, but thus far you've not chosen to do either of those things.

Quote:

"Thanks for the email and information. While I think there are probably some groups of Americans who would relish the challenge, we can't help you get the word out for your project.

I wish you the best of luck in your endeavor."

Translation: that's a weird concept and no way in hell are we gonna do it, so we'll let you down lightly.

So again, because regional GAs don't want to implement your commercial idea, the USGA is failing golf. Okay man.

[newtogolf]

So… You don't live in the United States, and you should probably stop talking about the USGA, the state golf associations, etc. You seem to be basing your entire opinion of the USGA's "failings" on how receptive the state golf associations or the USGA is to your commercial idea. You're not speaking from a position of wanting what's best for golf - you're speaking from a position of wanting what's best for you, and you don't like that others (USGA and regional Golf Associations) don't seem to agree with you about your commercial idea.

Not letting you spam the forum with links to your commercial endeavor is not failing to "lead in communicating" - it's stopping you from spamming. You could pay the $399 to become a Sponsor, or pay more to do even more, but thus far you've not chosen to do either of those things.

Translation: that's a weird concept and no way in hell are we gonna do it, so we'll let you down lightly.

So again, because regional GAs don't want to implement your commercial idea, the USGA is failing golf. Okay man.

@FarawayFairways has a personal agenda, gets ignored by the local GA's and comes to the conclusion that the USGA is corrupt and not doing their job

[iacas]

@FarawayFairways has a personal agenda, gets ignored by the local GA's and comes to the conclusion that the USGA is corrupt and not doing their job

Don't forget "lives in the UK."

[FarawayFairways]

I'm sure if you trailed it back you'd find that I've said some are really good, some are less so, that's the experience of most organisations in any spread. I've still found them to be better than the PGA as they're clearly closer to the club golfer.

As regards a personal agenda/ interest, of course i have, what's wrong with that? I'm not sure I could have made it much clearer. Look what I wrote

" Who benefits? Me - well yes, of course I do, I have motive so lets get that out front." - its hardly being hidden

As regards suggesting that some sort of oversight would need putting in place to prevent corruption, what's wrong with that? seems like a sensible precaution to me. There are no shortage of examples in all sorts of industries where deregulation works, but if left unchecked, will lead to corruption. It wouldn't be unique to golf would it? If you grant greater autonomy away from a central control you need some mechanism in place that can check that it's functioning properly. Look no further than the credit crunch for the most spectacular example of what happens if you neglect oversight

The American attitude to spam I do find slightly puzzling in places though. Thoroughly understandable in others

In the first case, few businesses will look to spam as a method for selling. I don't know anyone (I certainly never have anyway) who buys anything on the back of it. You do more damage than good so its not a particularly effective method. Without any sense of irony though, American television networks are clogged with the stuff, but that's advertising? or is it? Advertising (well on television at least) is intrusive, designed to disrupt, and not particularly targeted

We get targeted with spam as well, its not unique to America, but if the option is closing down your communication networks as the only method of defence, we'd prefer to keep them open and ignore what we don't want.

Believe me, I'd rather talk on the phone than get involved with the imperfect e-communication

At the end of the day, you asked me (lets remember that) what I would do. I explained that I have a limited perspective restricted to my area of interest, but couldn't expand on it. So what I have done wrong? Nothing that I can see

[iacas]

As regards a personal agenda/ interest, of course i have, what's wrong with that? I'm not sure I could have made it much clearer. Look what I wrote

We know. You basically outed yourself.

But that doesn't change the fact that you are suggesting that the USGA and the regional golf associations are failing to uphold their duties based on the singular reaction that, by and large, they've rejected a commercial endeavor that benefits you, a person who does not live in the USGA's jurisdiction.

Tell you what: I'm gonna call the R&A;, tell them I have a great idea that will make me money and may help improve golf a teeny tiny bit (maybe), and when they react poorly, I'll slam the R&A; up and down. Sound good? Okay.

As regards suggesting that some sort of oversight would need putting in place to prevent corruption, what's wrong with that? seems like a sensible precaution to me. There are no shortage of examples in all sorts of industries where deregulation works, but if left unchecked, will lead to corruption. It wouldn't be unique to golf would it? If you grant greater autonomy away from a central control you need some mechanism in place that can check that it's functioning properly. Look no further than the credit crunch for the most spectacular example of what happens if you neglect oversight

You have no evidence to support the idea that there IS corruption.

The American attitude to spam I do find slightly puzzling in places though. Thoroughly understandable in others

No it's not.

If you want to commercially gain, because of the work and time and MONEY spent to create, build, and maintain this site, you have to pay at least a little bit to do so. You have to pay to advertise everywhere in the world. The web is no different, and it's not an "American attitude."

But I'll tell you what: I'll also suggest that the R&A; advertise TheSandTrap.com on all of their British Open signage next year, because that's perfectly reasonable, right? And if they fail to comply, I'll bash them and suggest that they're corrupt and not upholding their duties.

In the first case, few businesses will look to spam as a method for selling. I don't know anyone (I certainly never have anyway) who buys anything on the back of it. You do more damage than good so its not a particularly effective method.

Wrong. If it wasn't effective, it wouldn't be such a big business. It's incredibly effective, sadly, because people are stupid.

Without any sense of irony though, American television networks are clogged with the stuff, but that's advertising? or is it? Advertising (well on television at least) is intrusive, designed to disrupt, and not particularly targeted

That's not spam. They're paying to advertise. Posting links (free) for your commercial endeavor is spamming.

Anyway, the spam discussion is…

At the end of the day, you asked me (lets remember that) what I would do. I explained that I have a limited perspective restricted to my area of interest, but couldn't expand on it. So what I have done wrong? Nothing that I can see

Nothing. But we're also now free to completely disregard your feelings on the USGA, given their now obvious bias by someone who doesn't even live in a USGA region.

[David in FL]

@FarawayFairways has a personal agenda, gets ignored by the local GA's and comes to the conclusion that the USGA is corrupt and not doing their job

Don't forget "lives in the UK."

Ahhhhh.....

......that puts his responses into a context that makes sense.

[FarawayFairways]

I'm no apologist for the R&A;, speak to them now and then though, and not dissimilar to the US state associations, you get good and bad - shock! - hardly

Perhaps you'd be so good as to tell me where I've posted a link then?

I don't think I did say they were failing either. You do enjoy trying to put words into people's mouths.

What I said is that golf was decline as evidenced by all sorts of indicators you could use. Some of the GA's are well placed to arrest that decline at state level. Others I think less so. One of the ways that decline could be arrested is to allow them greater autonomy away from a centralised command structure. It's perfectly normal business model. I also said that I thought the USGA was the best vehicle (compared them favourably to the PGA as the games custodians). I do think they'd benefit from a mor epro-active development role though, which could operate across all sorts of fields and over different temporal horizons. It's going to require an accumulation of small inititatives I think rather than one magic bullet to resolve this

As regards not living in the US, I'm frankly at a loss to imagine how you ever thought I could be. I thought I'd made that even more abundantly clear.

I think the big difference though is I do speak with the various US state associations, so I do feel I'm more than entitled to draw on my experience for doing so. If you want to enter into discussion with the R&A; or any European golf club for that matter, and report back what you found, does your nationality invalidate your conclusions? It's a strange logic you're applying if you honestly think it does

One final thing I would say about people with an on-line presence, is that 99.5% of us tend to be a lot more sinned against than sinners. I get spammed daily, I also get phising attacks and malicious hack attempts weekly. I wish it were limited to someone posting a link now and then (not that i have) but I'd settle for that now

[Parker0065]

You can bash me for this but personally I like the direction the USGA has gone in the last few years. I support the groove change 100% and although it didn't change a lot due to the ball manufactures went to work on coming up with different compounds to counteract the rule I think it was a step in the right direction. Same thing with anchoring! I'm a big Adam Scott fan and I hope(and I think he will,,,,too much talent) he comes up with a different putter/method to continue his great play. The USGA waited too long to make these changes and sent everyone in an uproar but better late than never!

If you don't like the USGA and don't play in tournaments then who cares how you play the game. To each his own but I think the USGA has at least made an attempt to keep the game where it should be. I would love to see them shrink the max Driver volume to 440cc or 420cc among other things but that's likely to never happen but I support the direction they and the R&A; have attempted to take the game this these past few years and into the near future!

[iacas]

Perhaps you'd be so good as to tell me where I've posted a link then?

I don't have to. You're the one that said we asked you to stop spamming.

I don't think I did say they were failing either. You do enjoy trying to put words into people's mouths.

How do you know whether I enjoy it or not? Also, I disagree that I've put that word into your mouth. You may not have typed it, but it fairly accurately represents the general sum total of your opinion, in my opinion.

What I said is that golf was decline as evidenced by all sorts of indicators you could use. Some of the GA's are well placed to arrest that decline at state level. Others I think less so.

Sorry, but you've gotta prove that it's declining due to things that state and local GAs can fix. Do they have the power to boost the economy, or require shorter work weeks, or require less of fathers like we saw in the 60s, 70s, even the 80s, and 90s?

In other words, you're linking the decline in golf to state GAs when the reality is it's probably got very little or nothing to do with them. Or the USGA.

One of the ways that decline could be arrested is to allow them greater autonomy away from a centralised command structure.

You have not demonstrated that you have any idea how "centralized" the "command structure" is now.

As regards not living in the US, I'm frankly at a loss to imagine how you ever thought I could be. I thought I'd made that even more abundantly clear.

I never said otherwise. I have also simply said that it makes you almost entirely incapable of commenting on the USGA, or at the very least provides a filter through which others can (and should) view your comments, just like your commercial goals.

I think the big difference though is I do speak with the various US state associations, so I do feel I'm more than entitled to draw on my experience for doing so. If you want to enter into discussion with the R&A; or any European golf club for that matter, and report back what you found, does your nationality invalidate your conclusions? It's a strange logic you're applying if you honestly think it does

In my opinion, it's not strange to judge your comments based on that sort of filter.

One final thing I would say about people with an on-line presence, is that 99.5% of us tend to be a lot more sinned against than sinners. I get spammed daily, I also get phising attacks and malicious hack attempts weekly. I wish it were limited to someone posting a link now and then (not that i have) but I'd settle for that now

So that makes it okay for you to spam? Please.

---

At this point, @FarawayFairways , I think we've heard all we need to from you on this. I'm done discussing it with you. Your opinion on the USGA carries little merit with me as you don't live here and don't interact with the regional golf associations (let alone the USGA) except to try to talk them into supporting your commercial endeavor.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by David in FL

For those that think that the USGA isn't responsive enough to the individual member, it's worth noting that membership dues only account for about 7% of their annual revenue as reported on the latest IRS Form 990.

This could become the 'Mickelson defence'. "It only accounts for 7% of my income"

In all seriousness, this is the bit that needs looking at

"and celebrates the history of the game".

Just WTF is that supposed to mean? OK we probably know the answer and its the sort of corporate clap trap we see enough times, but surely it's out of date (sorry couldn't resist implying history is out of date). It's really the notion that the past can be used to promote the future etc and whereas there is some merit to this, the current evidence suggests it needs reinforcing with more substantive actions

I'd suggest that rather than smugly sitting back and wallowing in the past, someone needs to give them a brief that involves looking to the future and the now, and start development programmes rather than popping champagne corks in celebration of halcyon days gone

Boy are you out of touch with the real USGA.  The USGA is heavily focused on maintaining the traditions of golf, and to do that they MUST remain connected with its history.    "Celebrating the history of the game" is not throwing a party, it's part and parcel of almost everything they do.  From working to keep the rules in such a form that the game is identifiable with its roots, doing all they are allowed to do within the law to keep equipment from exploding out of control, all the way down to maintaining the USGA Golf Museum in Far Hills NJ ( museum web page ).

They also endow research grants into environmentally friendly golf course maintenance and turf research.  They have their own water resource center aimed at reducing the amount of water courses require.

These are the types of things they do.  Along with promoting the game.

[minitour]

The USGA is heavily focused on maintaining the traditions of golf, and to do that they MUST remain connected with its history.

One square grooved wedge and belly putter at a time...

[neophytea]

The rules of golf are a game within a game.  just like the IRS rules.  If I call the IRS about a deduction, they tell me up front that they won't guarantee their answer is right.

How would you like to have the traffic laws to be written like the rules of golf?

Wasn't it the USGA that got a rule wrong at the Solheim I think?

If the experts at the USGA can't get the rules correct how can normal people be expected to get them right?

If we need hundreds of pages of rules and decisions, we have swamped the boat of common sense.

[David in FL]

The rules of golf are a game within a game.  just like the IRS rules.  If I call the IRS about a deduction, they tell me up front that they won't guarantee their answer is right. How would you like to have the traffic laws to be written like the rules of golf? Wasn't it the USGA that got a rule wrong at the Solheim I think? If the experts at the USGA can't get the rules correct how can normal people be expected to get them right? If we need hundreds of pages of rules and decisions, we have swamped the boat of common sense.

The rules tend to be somewhat lengthy because they need to apply to all possible situations in a game that isn't played on a standardized field, but rather one that is almost infinitely variable. The USGA gets them right. So do the vast majority of players....those that choose to learn and abide by them. The reason you hear about the mistakes is because they're relatively rare.

[bkuehn1952]

This is the sort of thing I think the USGA should be doing more often.  This type of real world field study and hopefully resulting recommendations will do so much more to help golf than the ad campaign, "While We're Young."

http://www.latimes.c...0604-story.html