Playing the right tees

[Fourputt]

Please help me settle a discussion. My dad is 72yr old with a 15-16 index. He has been pressured by club members to back up a set of tees, primarily because he's won a few events.

There are 5 sets of tees and he used to play the 2nd set and now he's playing the middle tees. Of the 10 par 4s on the course he can only hit 5/10 in regulation and those that he can hit in regulation usually require driver hybrid.

I tell him he's nuts and should move back up. It's my opinion you should be able to hit every green in regulation if you are playing the correct tees. I take it further to suggest you should average driver 7i, thus some holes are driver wedge yet others might be driver 3 wood but at the end of the day you've averaged 7i out.

Am I nuts to think this? Is there an article in print that suggests how you should choose a tee? Thanks in advance.

The tees one chooses should be determined by how long the player hits the ball, not by score.  The members who are pressuring your father are just jealous because he beats them.  If your dad was playing to scratch from the senior tees, it would be different, but he's still essentially a bogey golfer.  If he is allowed to play from those tees in the events then I see nothing wrong with him playing there.  After all, the course rating and slope should adjust for the different tees.  The average club used will still be determined by the layout of the course, but I agree that holes should be reachable in regulation, and on a well designed course, you should usually use every club during a round.

CR is everything in CO due to the effective length factor for altitude. If the course is short the whole course plays short. A 440 yd par 4 is driver 7i here, uphill.

Glad you think so.  My home course at Foothills has just one par 4, the 440 yard 12th (434 from the middle tees where I play), that stretches that long, but only on my very best drives when I was a lot younger was I ever able to play a 7I on my second shot.  I usually do well to reach the 200 yard marker.

The 18th is 430 yards, but it's a sharp dogleg, so if you can carry the bunkered mound in the corner of the dogleg without running through the fairway into the lake, it doesn't play to its full length.  Foothills is 6923 yards from the back tees, but it plays slightly longer because a couple of the holes are almost a mandatory layup off the tee.

[SCC4380]

Here is the recommendation from the Tee It Forward initiative.

Driver Distance	Recommended 18-Hole Yardages
275	6,700-6,900
250	6,200-6,400
225	5,800-6,000
200	5,200-5,400
175	4,400-4,600
150	3,500-3,700
125	2,800-3,000
100	2,100-2,300

[rehmwa]

Here is the recommendation from the Tee It Forward initiative.

Driver Distance

Recommended 18-Hole Yardages

275

6,700-6,900

250

6,200-6,400

225

5,800-6,000

200

5,200-5,400

175

4,400-4,600

150

3,500-3,700

125

2,800-3,000

100

2,100-2,300

I'm good with that - I try to pick 6500-6700 type tees if that's an option.

So for me, these number make sense.....

I like the idea of the approach being an average of whatever gets you an 8i approach (lots of 9i and wedge approaches but a couple long hybrid or 5i approaches too - )

so maybe rough out on average driver/8i (my numbers for example):  so=== (270+150) * 10 = 4200 (+2000 for par 5s(4holes) +700 for par 3's (4 holes)) = about 6900.  Maybe knock yards off (200?) a few holes as the averages don't consider that some holes are designed to require something less than driver on the tee, or even to clean up for not hitting clean 100% of the time ( ) - so estimate 6700.  makes sense

the occasional LONG set of tees is fun, but at 6500-6700 I usually end up with a couple par 4's around 420-440, but a bunch are usually a challenge hole (requires tee off with something less than a driver), or driver/wedge type distance.....that's a nice mix

I've played a lot of courses (usually public type "meat and potatos" type layouts) where I though even playing the very short tees might mix it up more and be more fun, not less - just so I'd have different options for tee and approach rather than just D->wedge on every hole)

(I ran similar math for a couple other driver lengths, assuming an 8i distance for that group, shorter par 3s, the par 5s not a LOT shorter - they all kind of fit the table in the same way)

OP - your dad should play holes where he has a chance to hit regulation with his length.  Playing handicap adjusted against others should be what's used to 'level the field' due him being a decent scorer, not forcing him back.

The other players just sound jealous.  they are trying to penalize him twice, handicap adjust AND distance.  Handicap only is fair.  So,,,,whatever tees he's been using to establish his cap is where he should play.  If he were to move back or forward, he should establish a new cap for his "typical" course length if he wants to compete on an equal footing.

[Dave2512]

Glad you think so.  My home course at Foothills has just one par 4, the 440 yard 12th (434 from the middle tees where I play), that stretches that long, but only on my very best drives when I was a lot younger was I ever able to play a 7I on my second shot.  I usually do well to reach the 200 yard marker.

The 18th is 430 yards, but it's a sharp dogleg, so if you can carry the bunkered mound in the corner of the dogleg without running through the fairway into the lake, it doesn't play to its full length.  Foothills is 6923 yards from the back tees, but it plays slightly longer because a couple of the holes are almost a mandatory layup off the tee.

I was being somewhat facetious but for whatever reason I can't find emotion tags when I post on my tablet, editing is PITA too. Foothills is an older course that was likely designed based on what golfers were capable of at the time. Often those older courses are tougher to navigate than all the wide open faux links they built post 2000 that are more just long than anything. But courses do play short here and we pay for it with the low course ratings. That's a big reason I use that as a guide, more about choosing tees long enough rather than being too far back. But a driver then 7i isn't a huge feat in CO, that's a 260 yd drive and a 180 7i. But I completely agree nobody should stretch any course out so far they are stuck hitting overly long approaches on all the par 4's. In CO it would also kill them on the par 3's, don't even have to be all the way back to encounter par 3's over 200 yards at the courses I play. Short guys would be hitting fairways from the tee on those too.

[Lihu]

I was being somewhat facetious but for whatever reason I can't find emotion tags when I post on my tablet, editing is PITA too. Foothills is an older course that was likely designed based on what golfers were capable of at the time. Often those older courses are tougher to navigate than all the wide open faux links they built post 2000 that are more just long than anything. But courses do play short here and we pay for it with the low course ratings. That's a big reason I use that as a guide, more about choosing tees long enough rather than being too far back. But a driver then 7i isn't a huge feat in CO, that's a 260 yd drive and a 180 7i. But I completely agree nobody should stretch any course out so far they are stuck hitting overly long approaches on all the par 4's. In CO it would also kill them on the par 3's, don't even have to be all the way back to encounter par 3's over 200 yards at the courses I play. Short guys would be hitting fairways from the tee on those too.

This just sounds so disproportionate. I guess being a "low lander" in dry heat gives us a different perspective on things?

My drives can be 20 yards longer (dry hard fairways) and my 7i is definitely shorter than 180. I usually** hit 155-160 carry with very little roll.

Totally different course strategy is needed, I guess.

**usually means the last couple months, I haven't been playing that well for that long.

[Dave2512]

This just sounds so disproportionate. I guess being a "low lander" in dry heat gives us a different perspective on things?

My drives can be 20 yards longer (dry hard fairways) and my 7i is definitely shorter than 180. I usually** hit 155-160 carry with very little roll.

Totally different course strategy is needed, I guess.

**usually means the last couple months, I haven't been playing that well for that long.

You don't want to know what the ball does at 9000 feet. Up there it was insane. As I said we pay for it with very low course ratings relative to the length.

[Lihu]

You don't want to know what the ball does at 9000 feet. Up there it was insane. As I said we pay for it with very low course ratings relative to the length.

Yeah, I guess it's kind of like shooting a 50 cal. Super long range to target, but your eyes still only see so far.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

This just sounds so disproportionate. I guess being a "low lander" in dry heat gives us a different perspective on things?

My drives can be 20 yards longer (dry hard fairways) and my 7i is definitely shorter than 180. I usually** hit 155-160 carry with very little roll.

Totally different course strategy is needed, I guess.

**usually means the last couple months, I haven't been playing that well for that long.

You don't want to know what the ball does at 9000 feet. Up there it was insane. As I said we pay for it with very low course ratings relative to the length.

I played golf in Colorado for 40 years and never in my life did I hit a 7 iron anywhere near 170 yards.  170 would usually be a hard 6I or a weak 5I... now it's about a standard 5I.  I play Pole Creek, Grand Elk, and I don't really change my distances much at all from what I play in Denver.  However, the few times I played in Florida, I felt like I was playing with a whiffle ball.

[Dave2512]

I played golf in Colorado for 40 years and never in my life did I hit a 7 iron anywhere near 170 yards.  170 would usually be a hard 6I or a weak 5I... now it's about a standard 5I.  I play Pole Creek, Grand Elk, and I don't really change my distances much at all from what I play in Denver.  However, the few times I played in Florida, I felt like I was playing with a whiffle ball.

I didn't hit it that far 40 years ago either, I was 6 or 7 at the time, age not index. Not unusually far now with modern 7 irons that are really strong 6 irons, mine is 31* at 37.75", that was a 5i in my Eye2's years ago. It says 7 on it but really doesn't matter what the number says. Look me up next time you are here, I'll show you what that thing will do.

[Lihu]

I didn't hit it that far 40 years ago either, I was 6 or 7 at the time, age not index. Not unusually far now with modern 7 irons that are really strong 6 irons, mine is 31* at 37.75", that was a 5i in my Eye2's years ago. It says 7 on it but really doesn't matter what the number says. Look me up next time you are here, I'll show you what that thing will do.

That's funny, neither could I.

That's a pretty strong 7i! I guess you use a lot of wedges, with no need for 4i or 3i! The loft on my 7i is 36*, the normal one is 35* but I had mine flattened a degree and it took the loft up with the 1.5* flattening. 31* is even less than my 6i! I also recall you mentioning that you are pretty tall so the added inch of length might give you more distance too?

What clubs do you use?

My clubs: http://thesandtrap.com/b/clubs/mizuno_mp-52_irons_review, except mine are about 1 degree more loft.

I might actually take you up on the visit just for visitation's sake. Brighton's really nice in the winter, I would guess it is really nice in the Summer.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I played golf in Colorado for 40 years and never in my life did I hit a 7 iron anywhere near 170 yards.  170 would usually be a hard 6I or a weak 5I... now it's about a standard 5I.  I play Pole Creek, Grand Elk, and I don't really change my distances much at all from what I play in Denver.  However, the few times I played in Florida, I felt like I was playing with a whiffle ball.

I didn't hit it that far 40 years ago either, I was 6 or 7 at the time, age not index. Not unusually far now with modern 7 irons that are really strong 6 irons, mine is 31* at 37.75", that was a 5i in my Eye2's years ago. It says 7 on it but really doesn't matter what the number says. Look me up next time you are here, I'll show you what that thing will do.

Dave - I'll be moving back to Colorado in July and I would love to get together.  We'll be in Fleming, about 2 hours northeast of you, but I don't have a problem driving to play golf.

[Dave2512]

Dave - I'll be moving back to Colorado in July and I would love to get together.  We'll be in Fleming, about 2 hours northeast of you, but I don't have a problem driving to play golf.

I'd rather head that way and play Riverview, love that rinky-dink course. Last time I was there the pro was also doing the cooking. Turns out it's a small world, I was wearing a Hyland Hills shirt and his son is the assistant pro there. My Mom is on the board at HH now and I learned how to play there in the 70's. Right when I was heading to the first tee about 30 folks in boots and jeans showed up for a homemade tournament, some played in boots. Very fun place. Shoot me a msg when you get settled. Anyway to keep it on topic I played the right tees there for me at the time.

Maybe Lihu will come out. Though Brighton is NEVER nice, trust me.

[14ledo81]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave2512

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I played golf in Colorado for 40 years and never in my life did I hit a 7 iron anywhere near 170 yards.  170 would usually be a hard 6I or a weak 5I... now it's about a standard 5I.  I play Pole Creek, Grand Elk, and I don't really change my distances much at all from what I play in Denver.  However, the few times I played in Florida, I felt like I was playing with a whiffle ball.

I didn't hit it that far 40 years ago either, I was 6 or 7 at the time, age not index. Not unusually far now with modern 7 irons that are really strong 6 irons, mine is 31* at 37.75", that was a 5i in my Eye2's years ago. It says 7 on it but really doesn't matter what the number says. Look me up next time you are here, I'll show you what that thing will do.

Dave - I'll be moving back to Colorado in July and I would love to get together.  We'll be in Fleming, about 2 hours northeast of you, but I don't have a problem driving to play golf.

If you don't mind me asking, why are you leaving the Bahamas?

[Lihu]

I'd rather head that way and play Riverview, love that rinky-dink course. Last time I was there the pro was also doing the cooking. Turns out it's a small world, I was wearing a Hyland Hills shirt and his son is the assistant pro there. My Mom is on the board at HH now and I learned how to play there in the 70's. Right when I was heading to the first tee about 30 folks in boots and jeans showed up for a homemade tournament, some played in boots. Very fun place. Shoot me a msg when you get settled. Anyway to keep it on topic I played the right tees there for me at the time.

Maybe Lihu will come out. Though Brighton is NEVER nice, trust me.

Oooh, I don't want to get involved in any local politics.

However, I would like to play golf with you two someday!

[Lihu]

If you don't mind me asking, why are you leaving the Bahamas?

$600 rounds, and who wants to live in a paradise forever?

[BuckeyeNut]

Please help me settle a discussion. My dad is 72yr old with a 15-16 index. He has been pressured by club members to back up a set of tees, primarily because he's won a few events.

My 2 cents.........

The club members are idiots because the CR for the tees played is what determines the index.    If they are accusing your dad of sandbagging, this is an entirely different topic.  Tee choice is not relevant.............anyone who knows a thing about handicapping should know this so I am surprised course members would ever suggest such a thing.

[DeadMan]

This just sounds so disproportionate. I guess being a "low lander" in dry heat gives us a different perspective on things? My drives can be 20 yards longer (dry hard fairways) and my 7i is definitely shorter than 180. I usually** hit 155-160 carry with very little roll. Totally different course strategy is needed, I guess. **usually means the last couple months, I haven't been playing that well for that long.O:)

Colorado is just a different animal. I used to live in Michigan, and I got 2 clubs longer when I moved back to Colorado. Par 4 length here doesn't scare me unless it's over 460 yards.

[Dave2512]

Colorado is just a different animal. I used to live in Michigan, and I got 2 clubs longer when I moved back to Colorado. Par 4 length here doesn't scare me unless it's over 460 yards.

And you'd have to find a long course to find more than a few holes over 450. My home course has just 4 par 4's over 450 from the tips 466-470-462-490. But there are 3 others over 425 and a 248 yd par 3 back there. One side the shortest hole is 198 and longest 619. None of the par 4's are sub 400 on that side and only one on the front is but it's still 372. I see high handicap guys torturing themselves there at least once a week. The total length is 7435. Despite the altitude help it's too much for most, brings trouble into play from the tee.