Trackman and FlightScope Devices Take Guessing out of Equation

[Wangus94]

I'll give you guys a good example.... when I went down to SD and got a lesson on Trackman, I had and still have positive attack angle numbers and a pretty big inside out move. The numbers look great, but what I was really doing was getting stuck and early extending. Coming up out of my swing was what. Created the positive attack angle numbers and I was hitting pretty bad hooks. That's my big miss. I worked on swinging more left and as a result my attack went down some, but when I hit it correctly it felt much more flush and went straighter. Not natural for me, but I have to feel more left and down with driver and that helps take care of the lifting up early extension as it was called to me. You'd think my numbers were ideal if you just looked at the computer.

[billchao]

  Wangus94 said:

I'll give you guys a good example.... when I went down to SD and got a lesson on Trackman, I had and still have positive attack angle numbers and a pretty big inside out move. The numbers look great, but what I was really doing was getting stuck and early extending. Coming up out of my swing was what. Created the positive attack angle numbers and I was hitting pretty bad hooks. That's my big miss. I worked on swinging more left and as a result my attack went down some, but when I hit it correctly it felt much more flush and went straighter. Not natural for me, but I have to feel more left and down with driver and that helps take care of the lifting up early extension as it was called to me. You'd think my numbers were ideal if you just looked at the computer.

If you were hitting big hooks, how could your numbers be ideal? The hooks would be evident in the readout, would they not?

[Wangus94]

  billchao said:

If you were hitting big hooks, how could your numbers be ideal? The hooks would be evident in the readout, would they not?

Not in the numbers... the tracking of the ball flight yes. But if you looked at specific swing related numbers they would look good.

[billchao]

  Wangus94 said:

Not in the numbers... the tracking of the ball flight yes. But if you looked at specific swing related numbers they would look good.

In the tracking of the ball flight? As in the computer simulation of the flight, or your eyes seeing it down range? I ask because I would assume that if the computer simulates your ball flight, it must do it based on calculations, right? And calculations require input. So could it be that the hook is in the numbers but you're not looking in the right place?

[Wangus94]

  billchao said:

In the tracking of the ball flight? As in the computer simulation of the flight, or your eyes seeing it down range? I ask because I would assume that if the computer simulates your ball flight, it must do it based on calculations, right? And calculations require input. So could it be that the hook is in the numbers but you're not looking in the right place?

No. The units measure how the club gets delivered, how the ball launches, and what it's doing in flight. You would see the device reading the hook and it would tell you that the balls spin axis is tilted way left causing the hook.... The the measurements of the club heads path, attack angle, even face would look deceivingly good. The ball flight numbers would show the hook being wild but the club delivery numbers wouldn't look bad. Especially if you think hitting up and swinging right are 'good' things... as definitely can be for some but in my case those numbers aren't achieved by a good swing.

[billchao]

  Wangus94 said:

No. The units measure how the club gets delivered, how the ball launches, and what it's doing in flight. You would see the device reading the hook and it would tell you that the balls spin axis is tilted way left causing the hook.... The the measurements of the club heads path, attack angle, even face would look deceivingly good. The ball flight numbers would show the hook being wild but the club delivery numbers wouldn't look bad. Especially if you think hitting up and swinging right are 'good' things... as definitely can be for some but in my case those numbers aren't achieved by a good swing.

Ok, but the display tells you the spin axis is tilted way left and you hit a hook. I'm not sure how you draw the conclusion that you hit a good shot "based on the numbers" when the numbers (at least one of them, anyway) indicate that you clearly didn't. You can't just pick and choose which numbers to look at to conclude you are a good ballstriker and ignore the ones that show you aren't. Thanks for the information on how the machines work, though.

[Wangus94]

  billchao said:

Ok, but the display tells you the spin axis is tilted way left and you hit a hook. I'm not sure how you draw the conclusion that you hit a good shot "based on the numbers" when the numbers (at least one of them, anyway) indicate that you clearly didn't. You can't just pick and choose which numbers to look at to conclude you are a good ballstriker and ignore the ones that show you aren't. Thanks for the information on how the machines work, though.

Look at it this way... If all the machine was 'looking' at was the swing numbers... and someone didn't see the ball flight, you could assume the numbers were good . Thats why you can't say hitting up or down is what you 'should' do or swinging right or left, ect.

[LuciusWooding]

  Wangus94 said:

No. The units measure how the club gets delivered, how the ball launches, and what it's doing in flight. You would see the device reading the hook and it would tell you that the balls spin axis is tilted way left causing the hook.... The the measurements of the club heads path, attack angle, even face would look deceivingly good. The ball flight numbers would show the hook being wild but the club delivery numbers wouldn't look bad.

What do you think is influencing your ball besides your delivery of the club? Those numbers are exactly what creates your ball flight. If the ball is hooking it's not because of some misunderstanding between your ball and the machine. It's because of some misunderstanding between you and the machine.

[Wangus94]

  LuciusWooding said:

What do you think is influencing your ball besides your delivery of the club? Those numbers are exactly what creates your ball flight. If the ball is hooking it's not because of some misunderstanding between your ball and the machine. It's because of some misunderstanding between you and the machine.

Nothing lol. The question was can you get decent numbers from a bad swing... I said I get positive path and attack from a bad position, what's confusing about that?

[Zeph]

  Wangus94 said:

Look at it this way... If all the machine was 'looking' at was the swing numbers... and someone didn't see the ball flight, you could assume the numbers were good . Thats why you can't say hitting up or down is what you 'should' do or swinging right or left, ect.

But you do see the ball flight, and the numbers do tell that it wasn't a good shot.

[billchao]

  Wangus94 said:

Look at it this way... If all the machine was 'looking' at was the swing numbers... and someone didn't see the ball flight, you could assume the numbers were good . Thats why you can't say hitting up or down is what you 'should' do or swinging right or left, ect.

No, sorry, if the machine was telling you that you hooked the ball, the numbers aren't good. If you look art he numbers and assume they're good because you ignored the spin axis readout, that's your problem. [quote name="Wangus94" url="/t/75554/trackman-and-flightscope-devices-take-guessing-out-of-equation#post_1014776"] Nothing lol. The question was can you get decent numbers from a bad swing... I said I get positive path and attack from a bad position, what's confusing about that?[/quote]Your example doesn't really prove anything, to me. I asked about getting "optimal" numbers. You may get good AoA and path numbers, but you hook the ball, so your numbers are not optimal. Like I said, you can't just pick and choose what numbers you want to look at and say TM sucks because it's telling me I hit the ball great but I really hooked it. I still maintain that if I had a launch monitor and practiced with it until I was able to hit optimal numbers consistently, I don't think an instructor would really change anything about my swing. Why? Because of function. If I am hitting good shots consistently, what more would I need to change? And yes, I accept that it would be faster to work with a competent instructor than to mess around on a TM on my own, but this is obviously a hypothetical discussion as I don't own a TM.

[iacas]

Thanks, @billchao , that answers this line of questioning pretty well.

[CarlSpackler]

I would assume that either of these monitors were tested 100s, if not 1000s of times on a range with a robot comparing actual ball flights to readings. I would certainly trust the numbers.

[BenGolf19]

My best friend purchased a flightscope and it is an awesome device to be able to work with. When the flightscope guy came out to our course to show us how to use it not only in the traditional hitting balls on the range way, but also on the course, different times of day, and with different equipment it really opens your eye how dialed in you can get.

[BenGolf19]

I myself have the ES14 from Ernest Sports. If anyone is interested in a lower priced launch monitor that gives out: Ball Speed, Spin Rate, Launch Angle, Smash Factor, Club Speed, and Distance I recommend checking it out.

[NewStart14]

How closed your club face is to the swing path would show the severity of the draw/hook.  If you are swing in to out, then a square club face with the swing path would result in a non turning straight push.  In your case the club face was closed to the swing path, and the numbers associated with the club face would show you were severely hooking the ball, IF you knew what you were looking at.  I am an example of not understanding the numbers for my swing.  I just couldn't fathom that an 10* in to out swing could produce a pull hook.  But it very well can with a very closed face in relationship to the swing path.  The ball would actually start (7 iron) 20 yards left of the target, then hook.......  We can do some weird stuff with our swings, and I really like the idea of tracking.

[mvmac]

  NewStart14 said:

How closed your club face is to the swing path would show the severity of the draw/hook.

Unless you hit it off the toe.

  NewStart14 said:

If you are swing in to out, then a square club face with the swing path would result in a non turning straight push.

If by square you mean matching the path and not "at the target" then yes, push that doesn't curve. Ball starts where the face is pointed and curves away from the path.

[NewStart14]

Mike, how much would hitting off the toe add to hooks spin because of the gear effect? Say to shots the same path, one on toe one in sweet spot , in to out 10* swing with slightly closed face to path?