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Williamevanl

Always hit it closer (dont lay up) (where is this?)

21 posts in this topic

I remember there being as study done about how amateurs always do better the closer they are to the the hole but I simply can't find the thread or the study online. Could someone point me in the right direction?

Thanks,

-Will

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Want to get rid of this advertisement? Sign up (or log in) today! It's free!

http://lowestscorewins.com/buy has that and a ton more.
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Check out this book, http://lowestscorewins.com/

Has a lot of information like that and also much more about all aspects of the golf game!

http://lowestscorewins.com/buy has that and a ton more.

Beat me to it! :-D

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http://lowestscorewins.com/buy has that and a ton more.


I appreciate that but is there an online link, I had this argument with a buddy yesterday during a scramble and wanted to send him a link or summary of the information.

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I appreciate that but is there an online link, I had this argument with a buddy yesterday during a scramble and wanted to send him a link or summary of the information.

Probably somewhere. How close is he likely to get the ball from 2 feet away versus 200 feet away versus 200 yards away? Seems pretty "common sensical" to me. Buy the book anyway. You play golf after all. Buy him one too. :-)

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Here's a quick one.

PGA Tour players

Proximity to the hole from 100-125 yards (layup territory I would think) is 19'9"

Proximity to the hole from the rough just next to the green (30 yards an in) is 7'8"

Proximity to the hole from a bunker next to the green is 9'2"

It is better to get it as close to the green as possible, the chances of you getting nearer the hole with an approach shot greatly increase the closer you are to the hole.

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Ok thanks. :/ :)

btw, I find the site search function very difficult for such things. I think I got back 1000's of results. Can we do quotes or anything?

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I see some limits on "closer is better."

Case in point: the classic short par four with a valley in front of the green. Options:

  • Hit a driver down into the valley and end up with a 70-yard blind approach shot off a sidehill lie.
  • Hit a hybrid , and have a level, 130-yard 9i approach with reasonable view of the green and pin.

Wouldn't the H + 9i be the more reliable option?

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I see some limits on "closer is better."

Case in point: the classic short par four with a valley in front of the green. Options:

Hit a driver down into the valley and end up with a 70-yard blind approach shot off a sidehill lie.

Hit a hybrid, and have a level, 130-yard 9i approach with reasonable view of the green and pin.

Wouldn't the H + 9i be the more reliable option?

The first hole of the Red Course at Sunken Meadow is very similar to this, except without the craggy edges. It's rolling fairway that is pretty steeply down hill to a collection area around 275-280, followed by a steep slope about 25 feet up onto a green over a horizontal distance of only about 10 yards (The hole is a short par 4 and is 290-300 from the whites) The slope up is thick rough, so it has to be a pitch. The fairway starts to roll down around 100 yards from the hole. I would much rather have the pitch up from the gulley than to hit an iron (or wedge if I got it very close to the dropoff). Obviously, it depends on the condition of the gulley, but I'd rather be closer, all things being equal.

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I see some limits on "closer is better."

Case in point: the classic short par four with a valley in front of the green. Options:

Hit a driver down into the valley and end up with a 70-yard blind approach shot off a sidehill lie.

Hit a hybrid, and have a level, 130-yard 9i approach with reasonable view of the green and pin.

Wouldn't the H + 9i be the more reliable option?

If you read Lowest Score Wins , you will find that your decision map on the hole above may recommend the safer play because the gully where the driver would land would give you a difficult shot.

Edit:  I should say, "When you read Lowest Score Wins ."

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I see some limits on "closer is better."

Case in point: the classic short par four with a valley in front of the green. Options:

Hit a driver down into the valley and end up with a 70-yard blind approach shot off a sidehill lie.

Hit a hybrid, and have a level, 130-yard 9i approach with reasonable view of the green and pin.

Wouldn't the H + 9i be the more reliable option?

I would hit driver. The reason being, I know how to hit a 70 yard pitch shot, I know how to hit a 70 yard pitch shot to a blind green. That isn't that hard really. I would still be more accurate with a pitch shot than I would a 9 iron.

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I would hit driver. The reason being, I know how to hit a 70 yard pitch shot, I know how to hit a 70 yard pitch shot to a blind green. That isn't that hard really. I would still be more accurate with a pitch shot than I would a 9 iron.

Wouldn't that depend on what was actually in the gully?  I would have to know whether the lie/terrain poses more of a challenge than just slope.

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Wouldn't that depend on what was actually in the gully?  I would have to know whether the lie/terrain poses more of a challenge than just slope.

He didn't say gully, he said valley with a blind 2nd shot. He didn't say if it had tons foliage for a lost ball scenario. I just took it as it was fairway that was way bellow the green.

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The first hole at Blueberry Hill in Russell Pa is something like this. 327 yard par 4. I hit a 4 or 5 iron to about 180 - 200 yards. After that the fairway falls 30 or 40 feet to a gully that is fairway but the trees choke it to a very narrow opening. A straght drive is great but anything offline and you're flirting with trees to a very elevated green. I don't mess around with those trees. Long iron then a short iron and go. At the bottom of the gully there is a bell to ring after your second shot to tell those on the tee they can safely hit.
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What's stopping you from hitting your 9i into the valley by accident, either by spinning it off the front or landing short? Or missing the fairway with the hybrid and having a tough shot from even farther than the valley? Then there's the possibility of running through the green. It's a problem whether you're hitting into and out of the valley or in front of and over it. Plus hitting the driver left or right of the fairway could leave you a very playable approach from the rough, likely flatter or cushier than the lie in the valley. You'll hit the green in regulation from there in most cases, so really the driver gets you closer and gives you a better chance at a GIR and a better chance at a lower score.

My thinking is just hit the second shot somewhere onto the green and disregard proximity to the hole. Even from a bad lie it's pretty easy to hit the green from 70 yards. Most people completely overestimate their skills from 120-170 yards. You'd be expecting to hit the green with a short iron but even the best players in the world will miss plenty of greens from there. From 70 yards? Even a hard shot from there will usually end up somewhere on the green for a routine look at a par or possible birdie chance. Maybe @iacas can quote reliable figures for amateurs hitting greens from 150 or so out, but I'd guess it's probably well under 50%. From 70 yards I'd guess it's about 15% higher, that's about the difference for pros. If you consider GIR to be a par and ignore proximity, you'll score roughly 1 in 6 more pars from closer in. To get a 50/50 length birdie putt you'd need to put it within a 6-8 foot radius. If you miss the green you probably won't even be able to do that often enough to break even unless you're really good around the greens. But you'll definitely be able to 2 putt from somewhere on the green more often than you'll be able to get up and down.

I'm not saying always be aggressive, but extra distance on your tee shot shouldn't be taken lightly; it's a huge advantage. If you don't believe me then play a round where you throw your ball 30-50 yards forward into the rough from your tee shot on every par 4 and 5 and play Bubba golf; there's a reason he often leads the tour in GIR. It doesn't mean to go flag hunting from the rough all the time, but you'll hit a ton of GIR without having to hit your best approaches every time.

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He didn't say gully, he said valley with a blind 2nd shot. He didn't say if it had tons foliage for a lost ball scenario. I just took it as it was fairway that was way bellow the green.

I was just looking at the profile and it looks like the lies would be ridiculous in the valley.

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The first hole at Blueberry Hill in Russell Pa is something like this. 327 yard par 4. I hit a 4 or 5 iron to about 180 - 200 yards. After that the fairway falls 30 or 40 feet to a gully that is fairway but the trees choke it to a very narrow opening. A straght drive is great but anything offline and you're flirting with trees to a very elevated green. I don't mess around with those trees. Long iron then a short iron and go. At the bottom of the gully there is a bell to ring after your second shot to tell those on the tee they can safely hit.

I know that hole. It's kind of a stupid hole, really. The layup is the proper play there but because of how tight and constricted it gets.

Originally Posted by LuciusWooding

My thinking is just hit the second shot somewhere onto the green and disregard proximity to the hole. Even from a bad lie it's pretty easy to hit the green from 70 yards. Most people completely overestimate their skills from 120-170 yards. You'd be expecting to hit the green with a short iron but even the best players in the world will miss plenty of greens from there. From 70 yards? Even a hard shot from there will usually end up somewhere on the green for a routine look at a par or possible birdie chance.

Unless the lies are awkward as heck in the valley, I'd get down to the valley and hit from there.

The 12th at Kahkwa is similar (second shot on a par five).

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I think that the answer is that in golf, nothing is written in stone.  You still have to use your noggin and think before you hit.  Most of the time closer is better, but if the conditions dictate that closer isn't better, then lay back to a safe spot.

While statistics can help, a lot of this is common sense.  It's knowing your game, managing the course to accent your strengths and minimize the impact of your weaknesses.  I have known guys who could stick a full sand wedge, but can't find the green from 60 yards.  I can't hit a full sand wedge, but I can chip like crazy from 50 yards with my PW.  That said, there are holes where the type of shot I need to play with the PW from 50 yards just won't work, so then I have to try something different.  This is why having a variety of shots available to you can be priceless.   The more shots you practice in the short game, the more options you have on the course when you are in those 60 yard and in situations.

I will be the first to admit that I'm weak with full shots with lofted clubs like sand wedge and lob wedge.  I'm actually better when I can play a pitch with a short iron, so if I'm in a tweener situation, I'll lean toward a leave that I can pitch with my PW or GW.

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