Are you ready for some NFL Football? 2014 Edition.

[newtogolf]

Belichick and Brady play stupid so I guess the equipment manager or ball boy is going to take the fall?  Belichick is the head coach, he's paid to know everything that goes on during the game, ignorance isn't a defense imo.   Brady is a pro QB and I'm sure he can tell the difference in feel from a properly inflated ball and one that isn't.  I'd respect them all a lot more if they own up to it and accept the penalty rather than insult our intelligence by playing stupid.

As to comparing this to PED's, I agree PED's is cheating because it gives a player an unfair advantage.  Using an underinflated ball in the cold and rain gives a QB an unfair advantage, so the penalties should be the same.  As for Belichick, this is his 2nd offense, so he should be suspended accordingly.

[dsc123]

They tested all the balls at half time and the Colts balls were all fine. The allowance is 1 psi, the pats balls were 2 psi under. If you're right, then the weather was different on the other sideline. But one of your articles just said air effects pressure, it doesn't say that Sundays conditions could have dropped the psi by 2 in 3 hours. I'm going to look for the other stuff.

[newtogolf]

They tested all the balls at half time and the Colts balls were all fine. The allowance is 1 psi, the pats balls were 2 psi under. If you're right, then the weather was different on the other sideline.

But one of your articles just said air effects pressure, it doesn't say that Sundays conditions could have dropped the psi by 2 in 3 hours. I'm going to look for the other stuff.

I wouldn't put it past the Pats to alter physics in their stadium, those guys are sneaky.  C'mon @Golfingdad you're really reaching here trying to give the Pats the benefit of doubt

[dsc123]

Okay. Check this out. The other article Golfingdad posted, the one from the Boston Herald. When I clicked it looked familiar because I thought I cited the same one yesterday as saying the opposite. Look:http://thesandtrap.com/t/76052/are-you-ready-for-some-nfl-football-2014-edition/1116#post_1097196 I did not alter the quote.

[Golfingdad]

C'mon @Golfingdad you're really reaching here trying to give the Pats the benefit of doubt

I have to reach because somebody has to balance out you guys, who have long since convicted them while missing vital information.  "They're cheaters because of spygate, therefore they obviously did this."  That's not enough for me.  Not because I'm not willing to consider history, but because I think spygate was a Belicheck/coaching thing, and this, were it true, would reek to me of only a quarterback thing (or quarterback and his receivers).  See where I'm coming from?  I'm not willing to lump Brady in with Belicheck as a "cheater" and I don't believe that Belicheck would be involved with Brady's equipment preferences, therefore "their" history doesn't quite do it for me.

[dsc123]

Also, the other articles I've seen all say it can't be the weather. Even if it was, it wouldn't affect only the pats balls. I did see one article that said it could be the weather if the balls were 90 degrees before the game (which i would submit is basically cheating, just smarter), and another that said it would have to be 15 degrees at game time, assume normal room temp for the ball. But again, the Colts balls were fine. https://theconversation.com/football-physics-and-the-science-of-deflategate-36581

[dsc123]

I have to reach because somebody has to balance out you guys, who have long since convicted them while missing vital information.  "They're cheaters because of spygate, therefore they obviously did this."  That's not enough for me.  Not because I'm not willing to consider history, but because I think spygate was a Belicheck/coaching thing, and this, were it true, would reek to me of only a quarterback thing (or quarterback and his receivers).  See where I'm coming from?  I'm not willing to lump Brady in with Belicheck as a "cheater" and I don't believe that Belicheck would be involved with Brady's equipment preferences, therefore "their" history doesn't quite do it for me.

One teams balls deflated by 2 psi. Brady likes deflated balls normally. Deflated balls are an additional benefit in cold weather. Nobody else had possession of the balls. The weather was the se on both sides of the field. You don't need a history of cheating to convict.

[Golfingdad]

... which i would submit is basically cheating, just smarter

See you lose me when you say stuff like this.  Aaron Rodgers' doings weren't cheating, but a slightly different type of pre-inspection alteration is?  I don't get the justification.

[dsc123]

There's something fishy about that Boston Herald article. These link to it also and repeat the part that I quoted, which is the opposite of what @Golfingdad 's version said. http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com/2015/01/21/how-and-when-did-the-new-england-patriots-game-balls-get-deflated http://www.patriotsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=69304&page;=59 There are others but I'm lazy.

[dsc123]

See you lose me when you say stuff like this.  Aaron Rodgers' doings weren't cheating, but a slightly different type of pre-inspection alteration is?  I don't get the justification.

Because that's dishonest. That's presenting a ball to the refs in a condition that only you know is temporary,and only you know is materially different than 2 hours from now,so that it will pass the test now, and be illegal later. To compare it to your profession, it would be like writing something in your plans that would not pass inspection, but using invisible ink so the inspector doesn't see it.

[meenman]

Brady lied in his press conference. He claims that he likes the ball at 12.5, yet could not feel the difference with the under-inflated ball. If you cant tell, why would 12.5 be the magical number you like.

And no way Belicheat didnt know about the shenanigans - this guy knows what girl his players banged 10 years ago.

They opted to play dumb - Goodell has a choice - either they get severely punished or he finds himself out of work.

[newtogolf]

I have to reach because somebody has to balance out you guys, who have long since convicted them while missing vital information.  "They're cheaters because of spygate, therefore they obviously did this."  That's not enough for me.  Not because I'm not willing to consider history, but because I think spygate was a Belicheck/coaching thing, and this, were it true, would reek to me of only a quarterback thing (or quarterback and his receivers).  See where I'm coming from?  I'm not willing to lump Brady in with Belicheck as a "cheater" and I don't believe that Belicheck would be involved with Brady's equipment preferences, therefore "their" history doesn't quite do it for me.

Brady wouldn't need to involve Belichick but if he knowingly was altering the balls he likely would have made Bill aware since it was possible they could get caught and the team would be penalized.

QB's spend a lot of time prepping their footballs to feel right, a number of college football players claim part of the reason they weren't as good in the NFL was because they couldn't get used to the NFL footballs.  My friend has played QB in flag football leagues for 30 years.  He has a special routine he goes through to break in a ball so that it "feels" right.  We've seen other pro's admit the "feel" of a football is important.  We know that the Ravens were the ones to tip off Indy that Brady was using under inflated footballs, so it wasn't the first time.

I can appreciate giving someone the benefit of the doubt, but even you have to admit that 11 out of 12 of the Pats footballs being under inflated while not one of the Indy footballs was is pretty incriminating evidence.

[Golfingdad]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsc123

There's something fishy about that Boston Herald article. These link to it also and repeat the part that I quoted, which is the opposite of what @Golfingdad 's version said.


http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com/2015/01/21/how-and-when-did-the-new-england-patriots-game-balls-get-deflated



http://www.patriotsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=69304&page;=59


There are others but I'm lazy.

Weird.  But I did see something in there that would have applied to our conversation yesterday.  I mentioned that perhaps it wouldn't be too difficult to look through the videos of the game and try and keep an eye on the balls to see if they can find anything, given the quanitity and quality of the video cameras at NFL games.  You responded with, what about the 2 hours before that?  To which, I stipulated was a fair point.  However:

Quote:

Under the NFL’s procedures, the referees hold onto the balls after they are tested and only hand them over to the ball attendant on the sidelines right before the game starts.

It's a small point, but a point nonetheless.  The only chance the Patriots would have had to deflate these balls intentionally would have been during the first half of the game right there on the sidelines somehow.  That's a fairly limited amount of time with quite a lot of exposure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsc123

Because that's trickery. Creating a condition such that the ball is different when tested by the refs. That's very different from just giving them a fat ball.

So is grabbing a guys jersey when you think the refs not looking.

I'd echo what @newtogolf said to me in regards to Rodgers.  It seems awfully double standard-y to me.

[dsc123]

Couldn't disagree more about the Rogers comparison. He presents a fat ball and asks for permission. The pats, in this unlikely scenario, heat up the ball so that it passes inspection then morphs into something illegal. If you're right about the video, then where is it? That would take 10 minutes and this would be over. Chris Cooley speculated that it would be easy to hide a needle in your Hand and deflate the ball. They're everywhere because they're used on helmets, and the ball boy is always wiping the ball with a towel. If that's your job, you could easily spend a couple hours perfecting how to hide it with the towel and stick the needle in for 5 seconds to deflate.

[ghalfaire]

Belichick and Brady play stupid so I guess the equipment manager or ball boy is going to take the fall?  Belichick is the head coach, he's paid to know everything that goes on during the game, ignorance isn't a defense imo.   Brady is a pro QB and I'm sure he can tell the difference in feel from a properly inflated ball and one that isn't.

I agree with this.  As I understand it the balls are nominally inflated to 13 psi +/- 1/2 psi.  What I heard on the local news was that the Pat's balls (11 of 12 anyway) were under inflated by 2 psi.   That is a 15% reduction in the specified pressure.  I would think a professional QB would know that felt different and question it.  A linebacker (who's name I forget) started this whole thing by questioning the ref after he intercepted a pass and thought the ball "felt funny".  I would think Brady would have much more sensitive touch than a linebacker.

[dsc123]

I agree with this.  As I understand it the balls are nominally inflated to 13 psi +/- 1/2 psi.  What I heard on the local news was that the Pat's balls (11 of 12 anyway) were under inflated by 2 psi.   That is a 15% reduction in the specified pressure.  I would think a professional QB would know that felt different and question it.  A linebacker (who's name I forget) started this whole thing by questioning the ref after he intercepted a pass and thought the ball "felt funny".  I would think Brady would have much more sensitive touch than a linebacker.

I thought Brady had a good explanation for that. He said his mind is on so many different things and he's not sitting there squeezing the ball, he's reading the defense and throwing it out quick. But... Come on. All the other qbs say it's a big advantage. He would have to notice his grip getting worse or whatever. I only listened on the radio, and he was almost perfect. There are a couple things I would quibble with, like this, but overall I thought he was pretty convincing. But the hosts then said that he looked very nervous during the conference. I don't belive him, though. I just can't believe that he can be so particular about the psi, then not notice the difference. And I think he had certain positions he was supposed to take that revealed inconsistencies. Like he first tried to say that he doesn't do anything with the balls except pick them out right before the game, but then he talks about how they use then all week. And he seemed to say that he doesn't give any instructions other than 12.5 psi, but everyone else says qbs are far more particular and involved in that, even Belicheat. Sounds like a guy trying to minimize his role.

[Golfingdad]

We know that the Ravens were the ones to tip off Indy that Brady was using under inflated footballs, so it wasn't the first time.

We do?  This is the first I'm hearing of this.  You have a source?  I seem to remember John Harbaugh saying that they didn't notice anything unusual about the balls in their game (but perhaps that was because he was too busy not knowing the rules). ;)

I also vaguely remember something about a kicking ball in the Ravens game, but the kicking balls are not separate between the teams and are also controlled by officials throughout the entire game.

Couldn't disagree more about the Rogers comparison. He presents a fat ball and asks for permission. The pats, in this unlikely scenario, heat up the ball so that it passes inspection then morphs into something illegal.

If you're right about the video, then where is it? That would take 10 minutes and this would be over.

Chris Cooley speculated that it would be easy to hide a needle in your Hand and deflate the ball. They're everywhere because they're used on helmets, and the ball boy is always wiping the ball with a towel. If that's your job, you could easily spend a couple hours perfecting how to hide it with the towel and stick the needle in for 5 seconds to deflate.

OK, I concede on the Rodgers thing.

Regarding the rest, I just ... I don't know.  Throw out the stuff you know about Belicheck and you really think that people that smart and with that much to lose are going to pull a "Tin Cup" on something like this?  The ratio of the risk to the reward is so flipping high on that, I just don't but it.  I just can't picture somebody like Tom Brady being that particular about something like that - that seems a lot more like a Peyton Manning type of thing.

Obviously, I've been wrong before though.

[dsc123]

The rule was changed to allow teams to prep the ball however they want, at the request of Manning and Brady. Yet he now claims essentially to have nothing to do with preparing the ball other than to say he likes it at 12.5.