Par Golf, and the low single digit players you know

[Parker0065]

I was thinking more in lines with this type of scratch golfer. The scratch golfers I have played shoot around their handicap on all the courses we play, even if they had never set foot on the course.

One former scratch player shot much higher (6 strokes or more on a TPC course) only because he was forced to play shorter tees, and couldn't use his driver for most of the time for fear of overshooting doglegs. Hybrids off the tees were his norm on these short (6600 yard) tees, and you could hear a really aggressive hiss on the ball all the way to the apex. I figured that his ball striking was pretty good with a really long hybrid carry and 280-290 yard driver carry the few times he was able to use it. He claimed to be currently around a 2 to 4 handicap, but was scratch or better in high school.

What a lot of people don't understand is that this is very mental as far as playing unfamiliar courses well. When I was a junior player in High School I learned this playing on a top ranked team in our State. There was absolutely "No Excuses" by our coach for a poor performance on a unfamiliar course. He ran the team and treated us like college players, no excuses allowed. This developed us into very solid "away" players. I like to use the example, a 7-iron, is a 7-iron, is a 7-iron, whether you hit it in Southern Michigan, Upstate NY, or Augusta National it's still a fricking 7-iron shot! Climate, elevation and wind may change a lot of the outcome but at the end of the day it's still just a fricking 7-iron shot and if you can understand that you can play anywhere. If you can't then your F$%^&*

[nick1998bunker]

Distance is a big difference too. I watched Patrick read hit a 4 iron into a very strong wind 240. I was standing right next to him. And well under half of the scratch golfers I know hit it under 270

[Zeph]

Distance is a big difference too. I watched Patrick read hit a 4 iron into a very strong wind 240. I was standing right next to him. And well under half of the scratch golfers I know hit it under 270

Under 270 with the driver?

[Lihu]

Under 270 with the driver?

Yes, I presume so. Maybe 3W too.

[nick1998bunker]

Under 270 with the driver?

all of them.

[Lihu]

all of them.

So, the majority of the scratch golfers hit over 270 with driver? BTW, it was a little confusing the way you stated it, but I knew what you meant anyway. ;-)

[AmazingWhacker]

I have never played with a low single digit handicap and not been impressed with their ball striking.  Even the older guys  . .. they may not hit it a mile but their accuracy and consistency is very impressive.  I've never played with anybody, regardless of handicap, who hit it much more than 270-280 on a regular basis.

There was this ONE guy at the club I used to be a member of.  I never played with him but I would see him playing a lot with a guy who must've been his coach - he would drive the cart but was not playing.  This guy hit it a ton - I saw him drive green on the par4 18th more than once.  His swing looked excellent.  He looked like a tour pro to me.  Everybody in the club knew who he was - I came to find out he tried to make it on the web.com (nationwide back then) but couldn't.

[nick1998bunker]

So, the majority of the scratch golfers hit over 270 with driver? BTW, it was a little confusing the way you stated it, but I knew what you meant anyway. ;-)

I'm sorry I mispoke, I was trying say that well over half of scratch golfers hit it under 270 whilst well over half of pros it it past that

[Lihu]

I'm sorry I mispoke, I was trying say that well over half of scratch golfers hit it under 270 whilst well over half of pros it it past that

The PGA average carry is 274, so I agree with this figure.

[Spitfisher]

The PGA average carry is 274, so I agree with this figure.

Carry distance?

or did you mean driver distance? in 2014 288 yards is average driving distance

[k-troop]

The guy who hits 9 greens in a round and still shoots 73? He's getting NEAR 17 or 18 greens in regulation. We call that an nGIR, or a "near-GIR."

I have never really thought about this, but it's true.

Shot a 73 yesterday at Apple Valley GC (Par 71/72.3/123/6805).  I hit 9 greens but managed 16 pars and only two bogeys (no birdies--argh).  I drove the ball well all day, with two "bombs" down the fairway and two drives out of position that required me to hit a recovery shot.

I got up-and-down 8/9 times (one of the bogeys was a 3-putt).  Of those 9 attempts to get up-and-down, 7 were from within three steps of the green, and two were from 60-90 yards.  I was 7/7 from just off the green (certainly well above average for me) and 1/2 for the two wedge attempts (one of those required me to make a 25 footer, which was the only putt outside of 6 feet I made all day).

So, I'll agree that being near the green matters a lot more than is reflected in a GIR stat.

As for the "pro" quality ball striking....  I hit the ball solidly all day, but not great.  I hit only 3 really good "results":  two were recovery shots from bad spots that hit or just missed the green, and another was a lucky 5i from 199 into the wind, lying in the rough, to five feet.  What I felt like were my 3 best shots all missed the green because I was going for tucked pins and missed the yardage by 15-20 feet.  The point of this is that quality ball striking is totally relative.  Very few weekend warriors would have been able to reach the green from where I was on 14 (the 5i to 5 feet) because of the lie, wind, and bunkers in front.  They might consider that to be "striking it like a pro."  It was really a lucky shot though--I struck it well, but was guessing about the counter-effects of the lie and wind.  My pitching around the greens was very pro-like, but that was pretty boring to watch (and to do, honestly).

[MS256]

I have never really thought about this, but it's true.

Shot a 73 yesterday at Apple Valley GC (Par 71/72.3/123/6805).  I hit 9 greens but managed 16 pars and only two bogeys (no birdies--argh).  I drove the ball well all day, with two "bombs" down the fairway and two drives out of position that required me to hit a recovery shot.

I got up-and-down 8/9 times (one of the bogeys was a 3-putt).  Of those 9 attempts to get up-and-down, 7 were from within three steps of the green, and two were from 60-90 yards.  I was 7/7 from just off the green (certainly well above average for me) and 1/2 for the two wedge attempts (one of those required me to make a 25 footer, which was the only putt outside of 6 feet I made all day).

So, I'll agree that being near the green matters a lot more than is reflected in a GIR stat.

As for the "pro" quality ball striking....  I hit the ball solidly all day, but not great.  I hit only 3 really good "results":  two were recovery shots from bad spots that hit or just missed the green, and another was a lucky 5i from 199 into the wind, lying in the rough, to five feet.  What I felt like were my 3 best shots all missed the green because I was going for tucked pins and missed the yardage by 15-20 feet.  The point of this is that quality ball striking is totally relative.  Very few weekend warriors would have been able to reach the green from where I was on 14 (the 5i to 5 feet) because of the lie, wind, and bunkers in front.  They might consider that to be "striking it like a pro."  It was really a lucky shot though--I struck it well, but was guessing about the counter-effects of the lie and wind.  My pitching around the greens was very pro-like, but that was pretty boring to watch (and to do, honestly).

One day last week I had a really bad day of ball striking (even by my low standards). After the round my son mentioned a couple of his bunker shots. I thought for a minute and realized I didn't have a bunker shot or even a shot from near a bunker.

Then it dawned on me. I either hit a good shot that was on the green or missed the green so badly that there wasn't a chance I was going to get in a bunker. Unfortunately had many more of the latter.

The next day I played a little better and had 4 bunker shots. I told my son that at least I was hitting the ball well enough to hit some green side bunkers.

P.S. Incidentally my score was 9 strokes better the second day. Missing greens by a little doesn't kill my game too badly but missing them by a mile certainly does.

[cfritchie]

Anyone ever play with a real low single digit player and not been impressed with their ball striking?

If you watch any low handicap scratch to 2 level player or anyone who's gotten below 2, they pretty much strike the ball like a pro.

Anyone see one that scrambles for par golf? I haven't.

I have to disagree with this...if you think us scratch to low single digit handicappers hit it like pro's...well you've never played with a pro. The difference between a 2-0 and a guy making a living on tour is about the same as a 0-2 and a 12.

I don't know that I represent the typical low handicap golfer. My index is currently a 1.2 and trending to a .6. I turned 50 years old a week ago and my club head speed with a driver is between 95-105. I don't hit it a long way's but can be "sneaky" long at times. How is my ball striking...well it's better then a twelve but trust me I have plenty of misses and off center hits..enough that it drives me crazy. For me the difference is I'm a decent putter, have a good short game and I can control my misses or at least have a VERY good idea of where they are going to be. I also know how to manage a golf course. I know when to hit driver...I know when not to hit driver...

I chase par just like some of the guys on TV..I miss more then I hit it perfect....

For me it is about managing the misses, not making the big numbers...knowing where to be aggressive and even sometimes playing for a bogie.

[Lihu]

Carry distance?

or did you mean driver distance? in 2014 288 yards is average driving distance

Yeah, I calculated it by cut and pasting the PGA stats on carry distance and found the simple mean of all the golfers to be about 274 yards, and 290 is the total distance.

http://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.101.html

http://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.02409.html

[nick1998bunker]

Yeah, I calculated it by cut and pasting the PGA stats on carry distance and found the simple mean of all the golfers to be about 274 yards, and 290 is the total distance. [URL=http://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.101.html]http://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.101.html[/URL] [URL=http://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.02409.html]http://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.02409.html[/URL]

And I would presume most of the pros actually in contention, the ones you hear about, hit it much farther than the average. Guys like johnson, Donald, etc each hit it 290 as the short players

[Lihu]

And I would presume most of the pros actually in contention, the ones you hear about, hit it much farther than the average. Guys like johnson, Donald, etc each hit it 290 as the short players

You presume correctly. I read a book a few months ago called "Tin Cup Dreams: A Long Shot makes it on the PGA Tour. . ." It said that Toledo averaged 260 yards driver total distance on the course and was considered one of the shortest hitters. When he was playing around with his family, he could easily shoot 300 yards onto an open window. The pros really hit far, and I have watched them up close during a couple tournaments. Impressive.

I still ask the question in my OP, because I have just finished a few rounds with some spectacularly long hitters. Like 200 yard 6i, and 300+ yards off the tee (the longest drive I witnessed was a little over 370 yards). They had issues with accuracy because of "practice time", but definitely not distance and contact and originally wondered if this was common?

The responses I am getting are that this is not so common. So, I am concluding that I must be in a hotbed of long hitters, and of course playing in TPC Tampa is probably skewing the distribution too.

[nick1998bunker]

You presume correctly. I read a book a few months ago called "Tin Cup Dreams: A Long Shot makes it on the PGA Tour. . ." It said that Toledo averaged 260 yards driver total distance on the course and was considered one of the shortest hitters. When he was playing around with his family, he could easily shoot 300 yards onto an open window. The pros really hit far, and I have watched them up close during a couple tournaments. Impressive. I still ask the question in my OP, because I have just finished a few rounds with some spectacularly long hitters. Like 200 yard 6i, and 300+ yards off the tee (the longest drive I witnessed was a little over 370 yards). They had issues with accuracy because of "practice time", but definitely not distance and contact and originally wondered if this was common? The responses I am getting are that this is not so common. So, I am concluding that I must be in a hotbed of long hitters, and of course playing in TPC Tampa is probably skewing the distribution too.

A lot of people don't know what they are talking about. Plenty of people hit it 300

[Lihu]

A lot of people don't know what they are talking about. Plenty of people hit it 300

It seems like at least half the high school team members can do it. I would guess more than half of any collegiate team.