"Correct" pace of play

[jgreen85]

I mean to edit my post earlier to include "tour pros shouldn't be the model." They're all really slow players. Part of it is the rules, but a lot of it is just intertia. There's no reason for one person to play fast if all it takes is one slow player/group to hold up the course. This is a classic Nash Equilibrium. Everyone would benefit from faster play, but it takes everyone to make it happen. This is where the government/rules making body should get involved to force movement the more desirable state.

I can see here that a lot of SandTrappers are a big part of the problem. If even, what i would describe as dedicated golfers, can't agree on appropriate pace of play. I can't see any chance we adjust the behaviors of the masses.

Also, no way walking is faster than the same player in a cart (assuming 90 degree rule and common sense, ie bring more than one club with you to your ball).

[CarlOwen]

right. they are processing information at a very high rate of speed but taking a long time to make a decision! I maintain that a pro is working with probably 10X the available information versus the casual weekend player.

[Lihu]

I mean to edit my post earlier to include "tour pros shouldn't be the model." They're all really slow players. Part of it is the rules, but a lot of it is just intertia. There's no reason for one person to play fast if all it takes is one slow player/group to hold up the course. This is a classic Nash Equilibrium. Everyone would benefit from faster play, but it takes everyone to make it happen. This is where the government/rules making body should get involved to force movement the more desirable state.

I can see here that a lot of SandTrappers are a big part of the problem. If even, what i would describe as dedicated golfers, can't agree on appropriate pace of play. I can't see any chance we adjust the behaviors of the masses.

Also, no way walking is faster than the same player in a cart (assuming 90 degree rule and common sense, ie bring more than one club with you to your ball).

Aside from external forces, we all play under 4 and a half hours, as far as I know.

right. they are processing information at a very high rate of speed but taking a long time to make a decision! I maintain that a pro is working with probably 10X the available information versus the casual weekend player.

Wait, I thought we were talking about 4 to 4 and a half hours being a reasonable pace of play?

What would you two want to see?

[18rounds]

Some in this thread are saying we should not emulate the pros when it comes to pace of play. I agree. However, that may be a problem for golf as a whole. Equipment manufacturers are banking on me emulating the pros when it comes to what is in my bag. Sponsors are hoping I emulate the pro by using the bank/watch/car that is on his hat. Even my instructor puts my setup position beside one of the pro's to show me how I should be setting up. But, when it comes to time I should not emulate the pro?

The whole industry depends on me wanting to be like the big boys in every way... except pace of play?

I am not arguing for 5 hour rounds. I am simply pointing out that this may be an inconsistency that is creating a problem in golf. Certainly not the only thing that causes slow play.

My normal round is either 9 holes in the evening by myself walking on a mostly empty course (1.5 hours) or 18 with my usual 3some on Sat afternoon (3.5-4 hours)

[CarlOwen]

We all play under 4 and a half hours, as far as I know.

Wait, I thought we were talking about 4 to 4 and a half hours being a reasonable pace of play?

What would you two want to see?

4 hours is reasonable for most courses but slow for others.

The point many of us are trying to make is many weekend golfers have delusions of grandeur and believe all this careful deliberation is necessary and practical. Whether it's practicing the honors "you're away" on the 4th shot into a par four, or laboring over a sloping 40 footer for bogey, it's all rather stupid.

The topic is "what is the correct pace of play" -n othing I witnessed last week on that muni indicates anyone has a clue. IF this is fairly representative of what a typical round is like, I fear we have only seen the 2nd or 3rd inning of a long decline.

To me, it's rather obvious why so many have quit the game.

[jgreen85]

Aside from external forces, we all play under 4 and a half hours, as far as I know.

Wait, I thought we were talking about 4 to 4 and a half hours being a reasonable pace of play?

What would you two want to see?

4hrs is the upper-end and for courses where walking is encouraged. If all four players are in a cart, it shouldn't take more than 10-12min per hole (obviously an average) imo, which is 3-3.5hrs round. Problem is a lot of golfers think they need to wait for their cart-mate to hit before they go to their ball.

[Lihu]

4 hours is reasonable for most courses but slow for others.

The point many of us are trying to make is most weekend golfers have delusions of grandeur and believe all this careful deliberation is necessary and practical. Whether it's practicing the honors "you're away" on the 4th shot into a par four, or laboring over a sloping 40 footer for bogey, it's all rather stupid.

The topic is "what is the correct pace of play" -nothing I witnessed last week on that muni indicates anyone has a clue. IF this is fairly representative of what a typical round is like, I fear we have only seen the 2nd or 3rd inning of a long decline.

To me, it's rather obvious why so many have quit the game.

Sure, agreed.

I should have qualified earlier that I am typically waiting for up to 8-10 minutes per hole for other people. On standard golf courses, I get on or close to par 4 greens in two shots, that take me 30-40 seconds times 2 to setup and hit. Yes, I need to wait for other people, because that's just a part of the game. That's the way for people to learn the game properly. They need to spend the time needed to figure out what to do properly.

I don't mind waiting on people serious about golf, because that's pretty much why I'm out there playing and learning as long as we all keep a 15 minute per hole pace.

I do have a counter example, which might lead to your frustration. My son and I had one round with 18 to 22 minutes hole times and to top it off one of their party was a ball stealer. He would walk back 20-30 yards to take my son's balls. I hit one past him when he did that once because I could not see him over a hill. Just then the marshall came out and told me the guy was walking back to pick up our balls, he didn't even tell me that I was wrong to have hit into them. Well, that guy dropped those two balls at seeing the marshall come out. Too bad we didn't get my son's other balls back they were pro-V1x. In the end, this one golfer reluctantly let us pass as the other people in his party made him agree to it. Well the rest of the round was great, no more "lost" balls. We finished, packed our car up, and were driving out when we saw they were still rounding to the 6th tee box (9 holes). In the end, they seemed to be enjoying themselves after we "hot rods" past them, and we enjoyed our round too.

Yes, slow play is a pain, but if the party in front is not purposely trying to be annoying, I see no reason to complain if they keep a 15 minute pace. Even if they are a little slower than that, I just expect them to be trying to play as fast as they are able. For instance, not walking back to pick up the balls from the party behind them.

Another interesting development is that as I am getting better at ball striking (with still a long long way to go), it takes me longer to think about my shots and my strategy. I no longer "hit and go". Also, the experience at Erie taught me, amongst many other things, to use my laser rangefinder properly. Even though I am slower, now, it is very rare for me and similarly skilled players to lag too far behind the party in front.

As I posted earlier, there are times when the courses are more open, like at 4:30pm to dark. If you can play sub-3 hour rounds, you can easily get 18 in.

[MS256]

My key to not running into a "pace of play problem" when I was on vacation: Get the first tee time of the day every day.

We played every day and never saw a golfer within 2 holes of us, and usually more than that, (and we played slow 3 of those days when my cousin was with us).

[Lihu]

My key to not running into a "pace of play problem" when I was on vacation: Get the first tee time of the day every day.

We played every day and never saw a golfer within 2 holes of us, and usually more than that, (and we played slow 3 of those days when my cousin was with us).

I booked and played the first tee once, when I got there at 5:00am there was no one in sight. Even the starter was asleep at the desk. The grounds crews were still preparing the course. They put up the flags just in time for me to hit, and the ground was wet. Everything was wet. In fact, even the trees were still asleep.

[Dave2512]

Some in this thread are saying we should not emulate the pros when it comes to pace of play. I agree. However, that may be a problem for golf as a whole. Equipment manufacturers are banking on me emulating the pros when it comes to what is in my bag. Sponsors are hoping I emulate the pro by using the bank/watch/car that is on his hat. Even my instructor puts my setup position beside one of the pro's to show me how I should be setting up. But, when it comes to time I should not emulate the pro?

The whole industry depends on me wanting to be like the big boys in every way... except pace of play?

I am not arguing for 5 hour rounds. I am simply pointing out that this may be an inconsistency that is creating a problem in golf. Certainly not the only thing that causes slow play.

My normal round is either 9 holes in the evening by myself walking on a mostly empty course (1.5 hours) or 18 with my usual 3some on Sat afternoon (3.5-4 hours)

Maybe but it only takes looking at the score at the end of the day to see how different we are than pros, on far less difficult courses at that. I don't see anything wrong with using the same equipment just don't see any reason to apply the same on course strategy relative to time knowing it will have little affect on score. The golfer that struggles to hit the same shot twice doesn't need to labor over the decision of how and where to play a shot. Could stand over it all day with multiple attempts and not do the same thing twice without happenstance playing a part. Honestly when I see someone doing the pro routine thing my first thought is they are doing it for appearances.

[Lihu]

Maybe but it only takes looking at the score at the end of the day to see how different we are than pros, on far less difficult courses at that. I don't see anything wrong with using the same equipment just don't see any reason to apply the same on course strategy relative to time knowing it will have little affect on score. The golfer that struggles to hit the same shot twice doesn't need to labor over the decision of how and where to play a shot. Could stand over it all day with multiple attempts and not do the same thing twice without happenstance playing a part. Honestly when I see someone doing the pro routine thing my first thought is they are doing it for appearances.

I agree that many people do do that, but it doesn't really bother me. Golf takes time, and if you're behind the people in front or at a 15 minute pace it shouldn't. There are only a few courses in the area that have 12 minute times, but it's a little bit of a joke because most of the time they take longer to play. This is in part because the starters are encouraged to send people out in 12 minute intervals. One 5 minute search (or even a 2 minute one) is all it takes to bottleneck the entire course for the rest of the day.

If they setup realistic time intervals, then it does not bottle up and everyone gets their 4 hour round as opposed to a 5+ hour one.

[18rounds]

@Dave2512 Oh don't get me wrong I totally see the difference between the pro and myself. I wonder though if the PGA may hold the keys to solving this issue. If they would put rules in place to cut the round times on the tour it would make it much easier for the local course to do the same because everyone would be aware of the issue. I also think it would make a better tv product. It's easy to think that it could never happen but I never thought we would see baseball put a pitch clock in either.

[RayG]

If you want to speed up casual play- We all know that folks will emulate what they see on TV. IF the tour had the balls to penalize a frontline player on a weekend round that MATTERS for slow play, instead of some Johnny Amateur on a Thursday who isn't going to make any money anyway, it might wake up a few people. And not in some silly season event. And do it again, and again... and again until they ALL get it. Then maybe we will get full coverage of 18 holes in 4:30 on a Sunday. Instead of getting 12 or so in the same time. Call it the "While we're Young" penalty. Have them play as threesomes with a stopwatch official timing each individual player. That way, you don't get the generic "your group is falling behind" warning. THAT player gets the "YOU are slow, pick it up or get a stroke penalty." Conditions depending, such as looking for a ball, unique lie and the like. How about you get your 5 minutes TOTAL to look for your ball AND then to play it. Not 5 minutes to find it then spend 5 minutes deciding whether to take your pants off to make a ridiculous attempt. You get 5 minutes- if you take 4 minutes, then you get a minute to decide how to play it. IF you have to go back to the tee to replay, you get an officials cart to take you there and then back to your ball after you hit it. No caddie, he holds your bag where you might land. you get to carry a club or two, driving club, a few tees and an extra ball. That could save 3-4 minutes it takes to walk the 300 back to the tee and then the 300 to the ball again. IF a stroke is applied, there is an appeal available AFTER the round, but before signing the card.

[newtogolf]

Tour golf could go with a shot clock, when it's your turn you get x seconds to do it.  They can get a fixed number of time outs that allow them extra time in the case of difficult shots.

[Lihu]

Somehow, the shot clock concept does not sound conducive to lower scores.

[flopster]

@Dave2512 Oh don't get me wrong I totally see the difference between the pro and myself.

I wonder though if the PGA may hold the keys to solving this issue. If they would put rules in place to cut the round times on the tour it would make it much easier for the local course to do the same because everyone would be aware of the issue.

I also think it would make a better tv product. It's easy to think that it could never happen but I never thought we would see baseball put a pitch clock in either.

.
It could very well be reaching that point and I wouldn't mind as long as it doesn't become a distraction, the long drive comps are put on timers, the PGA has to take some responsibility for encouraging the slow tactics particularly around and on the greens, the other ignorant antics are just the general publics laziness to learn how to move along.

[18rounds]

Somehow, the shot clock concept does not sound conducive to lower scores.

I understand what you are saying... But I wonder... I don't know if it parallels or not but I find that the decisions in life that I take more time lingering over are not neseceraly my best decisions. It appears to me that the tour pros spend a lot of time second guessing themselves. I would be interested to see how it would play out. My guess is that if the PGA put a reasonable shot clock in place overall scores would not go up at all.

[3putter]

With all due respect, I think blaming (For the lack of a better word) the PGA/Pros is a bit of a cop out.

1. I wouldn't blame a pro/anyone who takes his/her time lining up a significant par putt, but a hack dancing around his 4th double bogey putt on the front 9,  c'mon man.

2. Pros tend to have a bottleneck on par 5s  because almost all of them can hit the green in 2 shots. I've seen people 270+ out waiting for the green to clear...really, dude?

3. A pro will walk up to the green to examine his landing area for a chip/pitch, and with a high degree of consistency, he/she will hit that landing area. A 20-capper doing the same because he saw it on TV is just wasting time.

4. A pro gets 5 minutes to look for a ball, but he/she may play 10 rounds without losing a ball. The average amateur probably won't last 4 holes before losing his second ball depending on the course.

So pardon me for stating the obvious, but the pro games are a heck of a lot different from our games. Just sayin'