Drainage ditch drop rule

[natureboy]

I hit a drive to the right rough and it ended up in the middle of a drainage ditch with recently installed rocks / rip-rap a bit like the linear part of the pic below. There was no flowing water, but rocks are there to prevent gouging of the slope in a storm.

I took an unplayable, but was there any chance of a GUR free drop?

[rogolf]

It looks like you would be entitled to free relief for an immovable obstruction at the least.  Sometimes French drains filled with rocks are defined as GUR, but they can also be classed as immovable obstructions.

[MS256]

There's a course in Chattanooga that has concrete drainage ditches with vertical walls completely bisecting some fairways. Whenever we played there we just attempted to stay out of them at all costs. It was a pain because sometimes it meant hitting less than driver and leaving a long second shot. Later somebody told me that that everybody plays a free drop from those ditches. I don't know if they are going by a local rule or if there is something in the rule book that would make that free drop legal? Those rock ditches made me think of it and, although different, I would think that the same rules would apply to either allow it or not.

[rogolf]

There's a course in Chattanooga that has concrete drainage ditches with vertical walls completely bisecting some fairways. Whenever we played there we just attempted to stay out of them at all costs.

It was a pain because sometimes it meant hitting less than driver and leaving a long second shot.

Later somebody told me that that everybody plays a free drop from those ditches. I don't know if they are going by a local rule or if there is something in the rule book that would make that free drop legal?

Those rock ditches made me think of it and, although different, I would think that the same rules would apply to either allow it or not.

There could well be differences between what is defined as a water hazard and what is defined as an obstruction (or GUR, depending on the Committee's decision).  The definition of water hazard includes "surface drainage ditch or other open water course (whether or not containing water)".  My opinion is that the picture does not contain anything that should be classed as a water hazard.

[wadesworld]

There could well be differences between what is defined as a water hazard and what is defined as an obstruction (or GUR, depending on the Committee's decision).  The definition of water hazard includes "surface drainage ditch or other open water course (whether or not containing water)".  My opinion is that the picture does not contain anything that should be classed as a water hazard.

I would agree with rogolf.  Without explicit instructions, marking or evidence of water, it's just a feature of the course.

I recently played golf in Hawaii on a course built within lava fields.  I don't think the fields were marked at all, though the scorecard explicitly prohibited players from entering the lava.  Kind of a similar situation.

[Rulesman]

.  Sometimes French drains filled with rocks are defined as GUR, but they can also be classed as immovable obstructions.

French Drains are IOs by definition (according to both the R&A; and USGA). It is recommended that they are declared to be GUR if a grass surface is concealing or part concealing them.

The USGA suggested that players understand the GUR relief procedure better than the IO procedure ??????

[natureboy]

It looks like you would be entitled to free relief for an immovable obstruction at the least.  Sometimes French drains filled with rocks are defined as GUR, but they can also be classed as immovable obstructions.

Rock is an 'obstruction' because it is not growing, then?

Definitely no stakes around this feature. It is more of an artificially reinforced, but topographically natural drainage course (when there is heavy rain).

What's an IO?

[rogolf]

Rock is an 'obstruction' because it is not growing, then?

Definitely no stakes around this feature. It is more of an artificially reinforced, but topographically natural drainage course (when there is heavy rain).

What's an IO?

Rocks by themselves are not obstructions, movable or immovable.  However, when rocks are used in a construction, such as in your photograph, the construction becomes an obstruction, and in this case, it is an immovable obstruction (IO).

Don't say it's a "natural drainage course" because someone will suggest it's a water hazard (which would be nonsense, imo).

[natureboy]

Rocks by themselves are not obstructions, movable or immovable.  However, when rocks are used in a construction, such as in your photograph, the construction becomes an obstruction, and in this case, it is an immovable obstruction (IO).

Don't say it's a "natural drainage course" because someone will suggest it's a water hazard (which would be nonsense, imo).

Well, trying to be accurate so you can make an informed opinion. They put the rocks there to keep the slope from eroding during rain so water must flow there - at times.

It's a permanent construction, though. At what point is a rock 'natural' vs 'constructed'? Or can I move them all and/or always get free relief?

[Golfingdad]

Don't say it's a "natural drainage course" because someone will suggest it's a water hazard (which would be nonsense, imo).  :-)

Speaking as a civil engineer, not a golfer, there is no earthly reason for a feature like that other than as a drainage course. (Or some real sadistic "landscaping")

[rogolf]

Well, trying to be accurate so you can make an informed opinion. They put the rocks there to keep the slope from eroding during rain so water must flow there - at times.

It's a permanent construction, though. At what point is a rock 'natural' vs 'constructed'? Or can I move them all and/or always get free relief?

At the point it is constructed - some rock walls are made of rocks without cement or mortar - they become obstructions, and it's against the Rules to remove rocks from them.  It's up to the Committee in charge of the course to make the status of that area clear so the game can be played within the Rules.

[natureboy]

At the point it is constructed - some rock walls are made of rocks without cement or mortar - they become obstructions, and it's against the Rules to remove rocks from them.  It's up to the Committee in charge of the course to make the status of that area clear so the game can be played within the Rules.

So manmade constructions (like cart path, signs, buildings) are immovable obstructions with free drop within 1 club from nearest point of relief - if the ball is in or on it or if it interferes with stance (and swing)?

[Rulesman]

Yes.

Obstructions

An “ obstruction ’’ is anything artificial, including the artificial surfaces and sides of roads and paths and manufactured ice, except:

a. Objects defining out of bounds , such as walls, fences, stakes and railings;

b. Any part of an immovable artificial object that is out of bounds ; and

c. Any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part of the course .

An obstruction is a movable obstruction if it may be moved without unreasonable effort, without unduly delaying play and without causing damage. Otherwise, it is an immovable obstructio

Also see this and the following Decisions

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-24/#d24-1

This 'feature' is certainly not natural. It is an artificial construction made by man. Whether it is a form of french drain or not is somewhat irrelevant. Relief is available as you describe (under 24--2) unless it is declared to be an Integral Part of the Course. But the committee ought to make it clear.

[natureboy]

Yes.

Obstructions

An “obstruction’’ is anything artificial, including the artificial surfaces and sides of roads and paths and manufactured ice, except:

a. Objects defining out of bounds, such as walls, fences, stakes and railings;

b. Any part of an immovable artificial object that is out of bounds; and

c. Any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part of the course.

An obstruction is a movable obstruction if it may be moved without unreasonable effort, without unduly delaying play and without causing damage. Otherwise, it is an immovable obstructio

Also see this and the following Decisions

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-24/#d24-1

This 'feature' is certainly not natural. It is an artificial construction made by man. Whether it is a form of french drain or not is somewhat irrelevant. Relief is available as you describe (under 24--2) unless it is declared to be an Integral Part of the Course. But the committee ought to make it clear.

What are examples of 'c'? Is this done by voting on updated course maps that might include my rock-lined drainage swale?

[Rulesman]

What are examples of 'c'?

The road on the 17th at St Andrews.

[Missouri Swede]

The road on the 17th at St Andrews.

I think Granny Clark's Wynd on the 1st and 18th holes is also.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rogolf

At the point it is constructed - some rock walls are made of rocks without cement or mortar - they become obstructions, and it's against the Rules to remove rocks from them.  It's up to the Committee in charge of the course to make the status of that area clear so the game can be played within the Rules.

So manmade constructions (like cart path, signs, buildings) are immovable obstructions with free drop within 1 club from nearest point of relief - if the ball is in or on it or if it interferes with stance (and swing)?

Not always.  If the ball lies on or in an immovable obstruction which is designated as part of a hazard, then there is no relief without penalty.  If the ball lies in a water hazard, and an immovable obstruction causes interference, there is no relief without penalty, even if the obstruction is outside of the hazard.  The only way to get a definite answer is to ask the course management or competition committee.

[RickK]

I play a course on occasion that looks very similar to the picture in the OP's post.  This particular course has it marked with red stakes so it is considered a lateral hazard.

Play another than has much larger rocks in a ditch that disects the fairway.  In this case it has yellow stakes and is a water hazard.

Have also played courses in Houston and Birmingham that have concrete ditches runnng paralled to holes or disecting holes and those were also considered to be hazards.  If you get lucky and have a little sand or light gravel under you ball, you can actually hit out of those ditches.  Made an eagle at a course in Birmingham after hitting into a concrete ditch left side of par 5 and then knocking it on the green from down in the ditch with a 4 wood.  :)