Why Flaring Your Feet at Address Makes Golf Easier

[Ernest Jones]

Wow, BHogan looks really wide at address.  Feet far apart.  Could be due to ...?  Obviously he always wants more (precise, ample) distance, but he was kind of short in height   I like his arm extension, he's getting all he can for swing arc.  Scratching my head... what can i learn from this photo?  Thanks Mike.  More to think about, which is sometimes good.  But i know my mind is full of swing thoughts when addressing the ball, so whether more or fewer thoughts are better, i can't answer.

He's hitting driver.

Here he is with a mid-iron (ignore the red lines):

[natureboy]

Hogan flaring out his right foot. I think he only did this with the longer clubs.

Couple things

Posting this because it's cool to see.

I do not want this post to lead to a discussion of Hogan's swing, what he "wrote", what he felt, what his secret was. Please keep it on topic.

Yes his right knee is kicked in at address but he does rotate the knee outward during the backswing which keeps his hips turning (as well as the motion of the left knee).

Yep. Flared slightly on this swing.

[mvmac]

Yep. Flared slightly on this swing.

I would say a little more than "slightly", it's out at least 30-35 degrees IMO.

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BTW I deleted a post that displayed Hogan's stance chart, it's OT. Like I said in my last post I don't want this thread to veer off into a Hogan theory/swing thread.

[Lihu]

Flaring my feet out 30 degrees feels more relaxed.

[natureboy]

I would say a little more than "slightly", it's out at least 30-35 degrees IMO.

BTW I deleted a post that displayed Hogan's stance chart, it's OT. Like I said in my last post I don't want this thread to veer off into a Hogan theory/swing thread.

You are saying that it is only 10* shy of halfway to fully (90*) turned out? Wow, that's a lot. I don't see it. I would have granted you a small amount of right foot flare on this swing by Hogan.

For one, camera position appears to be in front of him judging by the apparent ball position as closer to center of stance vs. 2" off his left heel. Forward camera angle would tend to exaggerate the appearance of right foot flare.

The more I think about the camera angle, the more it reminds me of the Shell 'lesson' swings where the camera angle is also forward of the left leg, which makes the right foot appear flared, when he is clearly using the 'Five Lessons' model throughout the competition.

Also in the video (~1952 Fr. Keller) above he starts with a real toe-out position, but then tucks his R heel in away from the target, significantly reducing the initial flare. It doesn't make sens to me that he would intentionally reduce the flare if he wanted 'a lot' (>0* / >22*) of it relative to his written recommendations.

[mvmac]

You are saying that it is only 10* shy of halfway to fully (90*) turned out? Wow, that's a lot. I don't see it. I would have granted you a small amount of right foot flare on this swing by Hogan.

Ok I don't want to spend too much time on it because it's not a big deal. We'll agree to disagree on the exact measurement but we can at least agree it was flared.

[natureboy]

Ok I don't want to spend too much time on it because it's not a big deal. We'll agree to disagree on the exact measurement but we can at least agree it was flared.

I'm not sure anymore. The OTT 30* claim made me look at the Hogan's Shell 'lesson' swing again and the ball position (camera angle) is identical, and the 'apparent' foot flare is also nearly identical.

Sorry, I now think it was probably negligible and is an artifact of the camera angle. But agree to disagree.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvmac

Ok I don't want to spend too much time on it because it's not a big deal. We'll agree to disagree on the exact measurement but we can at least agree it was flared.

I'm not sure anymore. The OTT 30* claim made me look at the Hogan's Shell 'lesson' swing again and the ball position (camera angle) is identical, and the 'apparent' foot flare is also nearly identical.

Sorry, I now think it was probably negligible and is an artifact of the camera angle. But agree to disagree.

I think the amount of flaring is dependent upon the person's physical build and flexibility.

[mvmac]

I think the amount of flaring is dependent upon the person's physical build and flexibility.

Yes but I think for most golfers it's good to turn them out 30-35 degree. Golfers might have different builds but our knees all flex and extend the same way.

[natureboy]

Yep. Flared slightly on this swing.

After further review, I think I was wrong with this initial assessment.

[Lihu]

[QUOTE name="Lihu" url="/t/78207/why-flaring-your-feet-at-address-makes-golf-easier/36#post_1081162"]   I think the amount of flaring is dependent upon the person's physical build and flexibility. [/QUOTE] Yes but I think for most golfers it's good to turn them out 30-35 degree. Golfers might have different builds but our knees all flex and extend the same way.

Well, that explains why it feels comfortable. :-)

[Abu3baid]

Is there diminishing returns on how much we turn out our feet? I mean can someone over do it and have 45* foot turn and have it hurt him more than benefit him?

[Lihu]

Is there diminishing returns on how much we turn out our feet? I mean can someone over do it and have 45* foot turn and have it hurt him more than benefit him?

I tried that and it starts to get less comfortable.

[Abu3baid]

I tried that and it starts to get less comfortable.

I think comfort from trying something could be a false indicator as I feel discomfort with most of the changes I make in the beginning even though they are the correct thing to do.

That's why I think knowing if there is a point of diminishing returns helps, especially for the people who usually over due things and over exaggerate them.

Actually I usually don't over exaggerate, but I am learning how to slowly with my coach to get things done right!

[Lihu]

[QUOTE name="Lihu" url="/t/78207/why-flaring-your-feet-at-address-makes-golf-easier/40_20#post_1081484"]   I tried that and it starts to get less comfortable. [/QUOTE] I think comfort from trying something could be a false indicator as I feel discomfort with most of the changes I make in the beginning even though they are the correct thing to do. That's why I think knowing if there is a point of diminishing returns helps, especially for the people who usually over due things and over exaggerate them. Actually I usually don't over exaggerate, but I am learning how to slowly with my coach to get things done right!

Of course, "comfortable" to me means not putting myself in a position for permanent injury. ;-)

[mvmac]

Is there diminishing returns on how much we turn out our feet? I mean can someone over do it and have 45* foot turn and have it hurt him more than benefit him?

Yes, if the trail foot is turned out too much it can effect the turning rates on the downswing/followthrough. "Too much" can be a little different for every player but I wouldn't turn the trail foot out more than 40 degrees. The lead foot can be flared a little more than the trail foot but I wouldn't go more than 45 degrees. Too much lead foot flare can limit the hip turn, it will restrict how much the lead knee can move inward on the backswing. Like I said in the OP, 30-35 degrees of flare is generally a good place to be.

[cutshot878]

I've been attempting to make a swing in which my backswing is less upright and steep and a closer match to my downswing so that I don't have to be as athletic (as Fred Couples, Bubba, Furyk, and Ryan Moore who have large angular differences (loopiness) between backswing and through swing and have great rhythm and timing).

Is it true that flaring my right foot at address will not help me in this regard and will lead to too much of a weight shift onto the right foot at the completion of the backswing? This is one of the recommendations in Jim Hardy's somewhat antiquated (10 years old?) book. He recommends only flaring the lead foot in the "one-plane swing" as he calls it. The flat swing requires more upper torso movement while the lower body stays more static?  To flare the rear foot or not to flare the rear foot? That is the question.     I guess it depends on what you're using as your dominant engine to power the swing?   And other characteristics?

[maddog0512]

For a golfer that has the problem of rotating too much on the backswing (past 90 degrees to the point of pulling the eyes off the ball), would you recommend keeping the trail foot perpindicular to the target line (or minimally flared) as a way to limit the over-rotation?