Rule question: effective lie of putter when in use

[seattle66]

Rules question here about the lie of the putter:

My putter is a regular off the rack putter - 35" long, lie of 71-72 degrees. So the putter itself is easily "legal".

But if I use this putter and address the ball with the heel raised, toe on ground -- effectively making the lie of the putter near 90 degrees (definitely more than 80), and then putt -- is that an illegal stroke?

I've looked at Appendix II of the 'Rules' [ specifically parts II.1.d.(i) and (ii) ] and I can't determine whether my "effective lie" based on the way I hold the club at address, and putt, is in violation.

Thanks

[Rulesman]

Rules question here about the lie of the putter:

My putter is a regular off the rack putter - 35" long, lie of 71-72 degrees. So the putter itself is easily "legal".

But if I use this putter and address the ball with the heel raised, toe on ground -- effectively making the lie of the putter near 90 degrees (definitely more than 80), and then putt -- is that an illegal stroke?

I've looked at Appendix II of the 'Rules' [ specifically parts II.1.d.(i) and (ii) ] and I can't determine whether my "effective lie" based on the way I hold the club at address, and putt, is in violation.

Thanks

I assume you mean 'alignment'.

The specification relates to 'normal address position'. The fact that use an 'abnormal' address position is not relevant.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Appendix-II/

[SavvySwede]

Quote:

Originally Posted by seattle66

Rules question here about the lie of the putter:

My putter is a regular off the rack putter - 35" long, lie of 71-72 degrees. So the putter itself is easily "legal".

But if I use this putter and address the ball with the heel raised, toe on ground -- effectively making the lie of the putter near 90 degrees (definitely more than 80), and then putt -- is that an illegal stroke?

I've looked at Appendix II of the 'Rules' [ specifically parts II.1.d.(i) and (ii) ] and I can't determine whether my "effective lie" based on the way I hold the club at address, and putt, is in violation.

Thanks

I assume you mean 'alignment'.

The specification relates to 'normal address position'. The fact that use an 'abnormal' address position is not relevant.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Appendix-II/

Not necessarily, some putters with cambered soles have been deemed nonconforming because they can be played nearly vertical without raising the leading edge off the ground.

[Rulesman]

Not necessarily, some putters with cambered soles have been deemed nonconforming because they can be played nearly vertical without raising the leading edge off the ground.

It is the club that is non conforming. How it is aligned by the player is not an issue.

PS I meant to write in my reply to the OP:

"The fact that you use an 'abnormal' address position is not relevant" .

[seattle66]

Thankfully my putter is a regular old flat bottomed/non-cambered putter.

Sounds like I'm good with my 'technique' if I decide to stick with it.

Thanks very much for the answers and follow-ups.

[Asheville]

"Not necessarily, some putters with cambered soles have been deemed nonconforming because they can be played nearly vertical without raising the leading edge off the ground."

I'd like to hear more about this. Thanks.

[SavvySwede]

Quote:

"Not necessarily, some putters with cambered soles have been deemed nonconforming because they can be played nearly vertical without raising the leading edge off the ground."

I'd like to hear more about this. Thanks.

They made the rule to make sure there were no loopholes that might allow for the croquet style putting stroke. You would think with the amount of thought they put into eliminating the croquet stroke that they would have done something about the long putter before it gained so much ground.

[Patch]

I chip with the heel of my iron(s) raised, so I don't think a putter would be any different.

[Asheville]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asheville

"Not necessarily, some putters with cambered soles have been deemed nonconforming because they can be played nearly vertical without raising the leading edge off the ground."

I'd like to hear more about this. Thanks.

They made the rule to make sure there were no loopholes that might allow for the croquet style putting stroke. You would think with the amount of thought they put into eliminating the croquet stroke that they would have done something about the long putter before it gained so much ground.

RoG, Appendix II makes no mention of design restrictions on putter sole camber.

Nor does: http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-on-Clubs-and-Balls/Club-Head/#plain

Where is your information from?

[SavvySwede]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SavvySwede

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asheville

"Not necessarily, some putters with cambered soles have been deemed nonconforming because they can be played nearly vertical without raising the leading edge off the ground."

I'd like to hear more about this. Thanks.

They made the rule to make sure there were no loopholes that might allow for the croquet style putting stroke. You would think with the amount of thought they put into eliminating the croquet stroke that they would have done something about the long putter before it gained so much ground.

RoG, Appendix II makes no mention of design restrictions on putter sole camber.

Nor does: http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-on-Clubs-and-Balls/Club-Head/#plain

Where is your information from?

From the rules

d. Alignment

Appendix II, 1d provides that:

When the club is in its normal address position the shaft must be so aligned that: (i) the projection of the straight part of the shaft on to the vertical plane through the toe and heel must diverge from the vertical by at least 10 degrees. If the overall design of the club is such that the player can effectively use the club in a vertical or close-to-vertical position, the shaft may be required to diverge from the vertical in this plane by as much as 25 degrees; (ii) the projection of the straight part of the shaft on to the vertical plane along the intended line of play must not diverge from the vertical by more than 20 degrees forward or 10 degrees backward.

This Rule is particularly relevant to putters, and it exists mainly as a means for disallowing croquet or vertical-pendulum style putters (with vertical shafts) and shuffle-board style strokes, as well as designs which facilitate such strokes (see Figure 4).

For most putters, the “normal address position” is determined by the geometry of the head. The head would be placed on a horizontal flat surface, with the sole touching that surface at a point directly below the center of the face. The shaft angle is measured with the head in this position (see Figure 5).

If the putter head shape or weight distribution is very asymmetric, it may be necessary to make a subjective judgment as to where the effective center of the face is, and then to sole the club directly below that point. The position of the head in this instance may not always be the position that was intended by design. Nonetheless, in some cases, a judgment must be made based on how the club could feasibly and effectively be used (see Figure 6).

The same subjectivity may also be needed when confronted with a putter which has a very curved sole (see Figure 7). As before, the Equipment Standards Committee takes into account not only the manner in which the putter is designed to be used, but also the way it could feasibly and effectively be used, given the geometry of the head as well as other unique characteristics of the overall design. This interpretation is particularly relevant to long-shafted putters with very curved or multi-planed soles — however, standard-length putters of approximately 34 to 38 inches may also be subjected to this assessment.

It should be noted that all putters can usually be positioned in such a way that the shaft diverges from the vertical by less than 10 degrees or even to a position where the shaft itself is vertical. Also, it is unusual for the sole of a putter to be completely flat all the way from heel to toe. When faced with a ruling of this kind, the decision should not be based on whether a player uses the putter with the shaft in a position of less than 10 degrees — but whether the putter design facilitates a player placing the shaft in a position of less than 10 degrees (see Figure 8).

If the overall design of a putter is such that the player can achieve a “vertical-pendulum” style stroke (i.e., putt effectively with the shaft in a vertical or near-vertical position), it would be ruled contrary to Appendix II, 1d, even if the shaft angle does satisfy the 10-degree Rule when the putter is in its “normal address position.” The shaft angle on such a putter could be required to be increased to as much as 25 degrees. In assessing whether a putter can be used effectively in a “vertical-pendulum” style manner, the combination of the following features should be considered:

• length of shaft
• position of shaft attachment to head
• angle of shaft in toe-to-heel plane and front-to-back plane
• shape and weight distribution of head
• curvature and shape of sole
• intent of the design

[Asheville]

Thanks. How did I manage to miss that?

[ChristianG]

Hello,

I have tried many putters and ways to putt to be as regular as possible!

I have recently decided to use the same putting method as yours, and I am rather alone on golf courses!

Could you tell me if you have found a putter that facilitates the use of this method and which putter you currently use?

Thank you

Christian (index 11.8, from Belgium)

[dennyjones]

3 hours ago, ChristianG said:

Hello,

I have tried many putters and ways to putt to be as regular as possible!

I have recently decided to use the same putting method as yours, and I am rather alone on golf courses!

Could you tell me if you have found a putter that facilitates the use of this method and which putter you currently use?

Thank you

Christian (index 11.8, from Belgium)

Welcome to TST.   We're glad you've decided to join.   Don't be a stranger, post often. 

On 2/11/2015 at 9:35 AM, seattle66 said:

Rules question here about the lie of the putter:

 

My putter is a regular off the rack putter - 35" long, lie of 71-72 degrees. So the putter itself is easily "legal".

 

But if I use this putter and address the ball with the heel raised, toe on ground -- effectively making the lie of the putter near 90 degrees (definitely more than 80), and then putt -- is that an illegal stroke?

 

I've looked at Appendix II of the 'Rules' [ specifically parts II.1.d.(i) and (ii) ] and I can't determine whether my "effective lie" based on the way I hold the club at address, and putt, is in violation.

 

Thanks

Welcome to TST.