2015 NFL Football Thread

[iacas]

From DKonPittsburghSports.com:

DK: I wouldn’t rule out that an appeal will succeed. I’m no legal expert and won’t pretend to be one here, but courts historically have sided with the concept of commissioners having best-interest clauses for their own leagues — Roger Goodell and the NFL are no exceptions — and this judge … well, again, I’m no expert, but when you get as snarky as this guy was in his ruling, there’s more than a whiff of judicial activism at play.

I’ve been stressing since this Brady quagmire began that far too many folks equate collective bargaining agreements with the legal system. And that just isn’t the case, based on voluminous precedent. The league and union — and by extension, the players — turn over that authority to the commissioner. Same is true in the NHL and Major League Baseball. All concerned sign off on one person being able to use his judgment to render a decision. And the only issues of legality are when the actual CBA might have been violated. This came up a lot during Bountygate, and it seemed more folks understood it back then, for some reason.

No one can reasonably argue that the CBA was violated by the NFL in the way this process was handled. You might not like it. You might not like its outcome, one way or the other, but I’ve yet to hear or read anyone saying the process itself went against protocol.

And again, there’s just way too much in this judge’s terminology today that made it sound like he didn’t understand or care about this important distinction.

Goodell had every right to suspend Brady, for whatever length he saw fit, based on the CBA. That’s all that matters here. Nothing else.

That’s why the NFL will fight this. And why it must.

[acetoolguy]

Wasn't Brady for the most part uncooperative and reluctant to allow access to his cell phone and in fact had it destroyed but his previous 2 were still with him? I know public opinion should not have weight in a legal matter but his behavior didn't look at all like someone not hiding something.

News story..

Tom Brady cooperated with the DeflateGate investigation until it came time to hand over printed copies of his texts and emails, Ted Wells said in a conference call with the media Tuesday.

Wells specified he never demanded to touch the New England Patriots quarterback’s personal phone and was willing to take printouts of Brady’s messages.

“Mr. Brady, the reports sets forth, he came to the interview, he answered every question I put to him,” Wells said. “ He did not refuse to answer any questions . In terms of the back and forth between Mr. Brady and my team, he was totally cooperative.

“At the same time, he refused to permit us to review electronic data from his telephone or other instruments. Most of the key evidence in this case, as in most cases, come from people’s cell phones, and he refused to let us review the phone.

“And I want to be crystal clear: I told Mr. Brady and his agents, I was willing not to take possession of the phone. I said, ‘I don’t want to see any private information.’ I said, ‘You keep the phone. You, the agent, Mr. Yee, you keep the phone, you give me the documents that are responsive to this investigation, and I will take your word that you have given me what’s responsive. And they still refused.”

It’s unclear why Wells would have trusted Brady and his agent not to filter out incriminating messages or why the Patriots quarterback wouldn’t selectively submit emails and texts in printouts.

[jsgolfer]

Everyone knows the pats are dirty.They been caught before and nothing done as usual.

Really, that's all you got.  So Brady was the man behind the stupid spy-gate fiasco.

[Aflighter]

Really, that's all you got.  So Brady was the man behind the stupid spy-gate fiasco.

No we all know the coach was the one that orchestrated all that.It was said before that the ballboy would take all the blame.Didnt affect the outcome last year but trying to cheat is no better.

[dsc123]

Quote:

Originally Posted by acetoolguy

It’s unclear why Wells would have trusted Brady and his agent not to filter out incriminating messages or why the Patriots quarterback wouldn’t selectively submit emails and texts in printouts.

That's simply how litigation works.  As hard as it may be to believe, given the public perception of the profession, the system depends on the integrity of the lawyers.

The only constant in all of this is the keystone kops buffoonery of Roger Goodell.

Its shocking to me that MLB was able to make a 162 game suspension stick on A-Rod, without him ever failing a drug test , and the NFL can't get a 4 game suspension to stick on someone who so clearly was involved in a scheme to cheat.

From DKonPittsburghSports.com:

That’s why the NFL will fight this. And why it must.

I don't agree with this writer's rationale, but I do agree with this part.  The NFL has to fight it.

I actually do a lot of employee-side employment law and I was very surprised that it was overturned because its really hard to get a court to reverse an arbitration decision, and frankly, Goodell's decision in this case was really very strong.  It also seems odd to me that the judge says its not obvious that cheating and destroying evidence would implicate the "conduct detrimental" clause, but that domestic violence would.  I haven't had a chance to read the decision carefully yet, though.

I'm really very reluctant to believe anything ESPN reports that supports the NFL, because I think they have a conflict of interest and often times carry the NFL's water.  But ESPN's legal analyst, Munson, has written two excellent articles (and a q&a; column) on this that I think are really spot on, even though the case went the other way.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13332578/new-england-patriots-quarterback-tom-brady-nflpa-likely-come-short-court-challenge-roger-goodell-decision

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13479971/fooled-judge-deflategate-case-nfl-win-end-new-england-patriots-tom-brady

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13572474/nfl-appeal-tom-brady-decision-lead-precedent-setting-court-ruling-lester-munson-writes

[jsgolfer]

That's simply how litigation works.  As hard as it may be to believe, given the public perception of the profession, the system depends on the integrity of the lawyers. Its shocking to me that MLB was able to make a 162 game suspension stick on A-Rod, without him ever failing a drug test , and the NFL can't get a 4 game suspension to stick on someone who so clearly was involved in a scheme to cheat. I don't agree with this writer's rationale, but I do agree with this part.  The NFL has to fight it.  I actually do a lot of employee-side employment law and I was very surprised that it was overturned because its really hard to get a court to reverse an arbitration decision, and frankly, Goodell's decision in this case was really very strong.  It also seems odd to me that the judge says its not obvious that cheating and destroying evidence would implicate the "conduct detrimental" clause, but that domestic violence would.  I haven't had a chance to read the decision carefully yet, though.  I'm really very reluctant to believe anything ESPN reports that supports the NFL, because I think they have a conflict of interest and often times carry the NFL's water.  But ESPN's legal analyst, Munson, has written two excellent articles (and a q&a; column) on this that I think are really spot on, even though the case went the other way.   [URL=http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13332578/new-england-patriots-quarterback-tom-brady-nflpa-likely-come-short-court-challenge-roger-goodell-decision]http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13332578/new-england-patriots-quarterback-tom-brady-nflpa-likely-come-short-court-challenge-roger-goodell-decision[/URL]   [URL=http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13479971/fooled-judge-deflategate-case-nfl-win-end-new-england-patriots-tom-brady]http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13479971/fooled-judge-deflategate-case-nfl-win-end-new-england-patriots-tom-brady[/URL]   [URL=http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13572474/nfl-appeal-tom-brady-decision-lead-precedent-setting-court-ruling-lester-munson-writes]http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13572474/nfl-appeal-tom-brady-decision-lead-precedent-setting-court-ruling-lester-munson-writes[/URL]

Lester Munson the disbarred lawyer who hasn't been correct yet about anything. I think I'll pass on his excellent written articles. Goodell's case was awful, nothing was ever proved in his "independent" investigation. Regardless of the CBA you still have to allow a fair hearing which was never allowed. Read the decision and then read the end of the report where he left 3 issues as undecided, which he can revisit if it gets overturned.

[turtleback]

So apparently obstruction of justice is now OK.  Who knew?

And for those who say Brady had nothing to do with the deflating, I offer up Martha Stewart who went to jail even though she didn't do any insider trading, which is what she was investigate for, and Scooter Libby, who we now know was NOT the one who outed Valerie Plame but who got his life turned upside down anyway,

Why is it such a hard idea that if you have a legal or contractual obligation to cooperate with an investigation it is WRONG to withhold or destroy evidence or lie to investigators?

[dsc123]

Lester Munson the disbarred lawyer who hasn't been correct yet about anything. I think I'll pass on his excellent written articles. Goodell's case was awful, nothing was ever proved in his "independent" investigation. Regardless of the CBA you still have to allow a fair hearing which was never allowed. Read the decision and then read the end of the report where he left 3 issues as undecided, which he can revisit if it gets overturned.

Says the anonymous guy on an internet message board, who says things like "nothing was ever proved" in the investigation.

I'll judge the arguments by logic and my own experience, not unrelated events that occurred 20 years ago.

[dsc123]

So apparently obstruction of justice is now OK.  Who knew?

Let's not confuse lack of notice is with, "Brady didn't cheat" or "Brady didn't fail to comply with the investigation".  This decision had nothing to do with the evidence regarding Brady's actions.   The judge ruled that Brady wasn't on notice that his actions could lead to a suspension.

[Golfingdad]

Im really very reluctant to believe anything ESPN reports that supports the NFL, because I think they have a conflict of interest and often times carry the NFL's water.

Funny, because it doesn't seem like anybody (including yourself) felt this at the beginning of this whole debacle when the NFL used ESPN and Chris Mortensen to fry the Patriots in the court of public opinion with lies.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/maurybrown/2015/08/01/emails-show-the-nfl-failed-to-stop-misinformation-as-part-of-deflategate/

[dsc123]

Funny, because it doesn't seem like anybody (including yourself) felt this at the beginning of this whole debacle when the NFL used ESPN and Chris Mortensen to fry the Patriots in the court of public opinion with lies.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/maurybrown/2015/08/01/emails-show-the-nfl-failed-to-stop-misinformation-as-part-of-deflategate/

Why would that be seen as supporting the NFL at the time?  The Golden Boy is incredibly valuable to the NFL.  Kraft was Goodell's bff and helped him navigate the Ray Rice Fiasco.  I actually expected the NFL to brush this under the rug when it first came out.  I mean, read the email.  Even the Patriots lawyer said she could comprehend how the NFL would benefit from withholding the information.  It wasn't until the Wells Report came out that I ever really looked at this as NFL v. Brady.

Also, the significance of those emails are way overblown.  The 11 patriots balls were all under inflated.  No matter what gauge you used.  The colts balls were all at 12.5 using one of the gauges and 3 were slightly (0.2 to 0.35 too light) under, using the other.  The fact remained that ALL of the patriots' balls were deflated, and ALL of the colts balls were probably okay.  So the big smoking guy is that the NFL's "failed" to explain that the patriots cheated by less of a degree than originally reported?

[jsgolfer]

This is from the Wells Report, not sure anyone read it all the way through (see Page 112 of the Wells Report)

https://nesncom.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/entirewellsreport.pdf

"As a result of exposure to the colder temperature on the field during the first half, the air pressure of all of the game balls tested at halftime decreased from the levels measured prior to the game. This result is consistent with basic scientific principles, including the Ideal Gas Law, which predicts the proportional change in pressure that is caused by a change in temperature of the gas inside a pressure vessel of fixed volume (such as a football). According to Exponent, based on the most likely pressure and temperature values for the Patriots game balls on the day of the AFC Championship Game (i.e., a starting pressure of 12.5 psi, a starting temperature of between 67 and 71 degrees and a final temperature of 48 degrees), the Ideal Gas Law predicts that the Patriots balls should have measured between 11.52 and 11.32 psi at the end of the first half, just before they were brought back into the Officials Locker Room.

So that is the starting position of the psi of the balls on whether or not they were significantly deflated not the 12.5 psi, so at worst the average of the Patriots footballs with one gauge were 11.09 and the other gauge they were 11.49.  (please look at Table 11 of the Exponent Report, pg. 45).

So please explain if the results that should've been obtained and what was reported are significantly deflated.  And if you're being honest, you will see that this whole thing was a sham.

Says the anonymous guy on an internet message board, who says things like "nothing was ever proved" in the investigation.

I'll judge the arguments by logic and my own experience, not unrelated events that occurred 20 years ago.

I guess Mike Florio, the ex-lawyer, is also an anonymous poster.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/08/21/espn-legal-analyst-declares-nfl-will-win-brady-case/

"It’s unclear why Munson has been so strident in his views on the Brady case. We’ll assume that he genuinely believes he already knows the outcome, and that he’s not lying to the audience he serves. However, if we rule out that Munson is lying, it means that he’s uninformed.

"I don’t know Lester Munson personally, and I have no reason to question his intelligence or lack thereof. Except, that is, for the fact that he was once suspended by the Illinois Attorney Registration and Disciplinary Commission in a case that included a finding that he failed to maintain separate accounts for client funds from settlements and for his business expenses."

Judge Berman’s ruling may contain a warning for the NFL

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/09/03/judge-bermans-ruling-may-contain-a-warning-for-the-nfl/

"When reviewing a written ruling from a court, lawyers have a habit of going to the last page and working backwards. Judge Richard M. Berman surely knows that this happens, which means there’s a chance he included a specific message for the league’s lawyers at the very end of Thursday’s ruling in the Tom Brady case.

And the message may have been, “Appeal this decision at your own peril.”

Appearing at the top of the last full page of the 40-page ruling is the list of claims from Brady and the NFL Players Association that Judge Berman saw no need to address, including: (1) whether Commissioner Roger Goodell was “evidently partial” in presiding over the appeal of Brady’s suspension; (2) whether Goodell’s conclusions regarding Brady’s knowledge of and involvement in the alleged deflation scheme exceeded the findings of the Ted Wells report; and (3) whether Goodell undermined his competency to serve as arbitrator by publicly praising the work of Ted Wells."

[acetoolguy]

.

Its shocking to me that MLB was able to make a 162 game suspension stick on A-Rod, without him ever failing a drug test, and the NFL can't get a 4 game suspension to stick on someone who so clearly was involved in a scheme to cheat.

This is the first time in all the coverage I have listened to or read that somebody used the word clearly. I strongly suggest you take your evidence, that Wells missed BTW, to the NFL. Goodell will pay you a ton of money for it at this point.

[flopster]

News story..

Tom Brady cooperated with the DeflateGate investigation until it came time to hand over printed copies of his texts and emails, Ted Wells said in a conference call with the media Tuesday.

Wells specified he never demanded to touch the New England Patriots quarterback’s personal phone and was willing to take printouts of Brady’s messages.

“Mr. Brady, the reports sets forth, he came to the interview, he answered every question I put to him,” Wells said. “He did not refuse to answer any questions. In terms of the back and forth between Mr. Brady and my team, he was totally cooperative.

“At the same time, he refused to permit us to review electronic data from his telephone or other instruments. Most of the key evidence in this case, as in most cases, come from people’s cell phones, and he refused to let us review the phone.

“And I want to be crystal clear: I told Mr. Brady and his agents, I was willing not to take possession of the phone. I said, ‘I don’t want to see any private information.’ I said, ‘You keep the phone. You, the agent, Mr. Yee, you keep the phone, you give me the documents that are responsive to this investigation, and I will take your word that you have given me what’s responsive. And they still refused.”

It’s unclear why Wells would have trusted Brady and his agent not to filter out incriminating messages or why the Patriots quarterback wouldn’t selectively submit emails and texts in printouts.

Sorry for not being on point with this whole fiasco, honestly I made every effort to ignore it for the most part cause I knew Brady was going to do anything he could to wiggle out of this and that's just disgusting, I do recall they only wanted transcripts now though and of course Brady denied (no surprise there), at the start I do remember a comparison was done on fumble rates of the Patriots versus the league and what I remember there was a greater disparity between the Pats and the 2nd team than the 2nd team and the other half of teams, that IMO is the smoking gun I know that Belicheck emphasizes ball possession a lot but honestly what HC doesn't? Also players that played for other teams before or after playing for the Pats on average had fewer fumbles how can that be explained?  I don't care what Brady,his agent,and lawyers can do to get a judge to dismiss his suspension because of a technicality he's a cheat and a liar plain and simple and hopefully he just screwed his chances for Canton he needs to stop hiding and man up.

[dsc123]

So that is the starting position of the psi of the balls on whether or not they were significantly deflated not the 12.5 psi, so at worst the average of the Patriots footballs with one gauge were 11.09 and the other gauge they were 11.49.  (please look at Table 11 of the Exponent Report, pg. 45).

You make no sense.  1) if the balls averaged 11.09, and natural causes could only lower them to 11.32...you realize that this means that some of the balls were deflated more than would be caused by temperature changes, right?  I mean, you realize that that actually proves that they did cheat, right?  2)  The average is meaningless as you use it.  If 11 balls were measured, and 10 rated 8PSI while 1 rated 5000PSI, would you say they didn't deflate any balls because the average was higher than 12.5?

If 11.32 was the lowest it should have measured by natural causes, look at Table A-1.  With gauge A, 8 of the 11 balls were deflated beyond that amount.  This is the gauge the Wells report concludes was used before the game to test the balls.  With gauge B, 3 of them were deflated below the natural limits.  So if you ignore all of the other evidence, and assume that the other gauge was used...just because it fits your preferred outcome...then the Patriots stuck pins in 3 of the balls.  That's your best case scenario.

Then look at the last column.  Look at the loss of pressure by the Patriots balls.  Look at the loss of pressure by the Colts balls.

I guess Mike Florio, the ex-lawyer, is also an anonymous poster.

......no.........i was talking about your opinion.  I don't care if you don't read the articles.  I'm just saying 1) as someone with experience with this stuff, and who is skeptical of ESPN generally, I think his analysis was very good; and 2) you're illogical arguments are not more credible than his.

Also, its absurd to call someone a liar for incorrectly predicting a future event.  Read what Florio wrote.  Judge it for yourself.  Its completely illogical.  Is a player who declares that his team is going to win the super bowl a liar when they lose?

This is the first time in all the coverage I have listened to or read that somebody used the word clearly.  I strongly suggest you take your evidence, that Wells missed BTW, to the NFL. Goodell will pay you a ton of money for it at this point.

Yeah, i don't agree.  For the reasons that have been discussed above and numerous times on here.  There's no direct evidence, but a mountain of circumstantial evidence.  Its "clear" in layman's terms.  Any unbiased person looking at these facts would reject the patriot's contention that these guys were talking about reporting weight loss to ESPN and bringing the balls into the bathroom for no reason.

[jsgolfer]

Sorry for not being on point with this whole fiasco, honestly I made every effort to ignore it for the most part cause I knew Brady was going to do anything he could to wiggle out of this and that's just disgusting, I do recall they only wanted transcripts now though and of course Brady denied (no surprise there), at the start I do remember a comparison was done on fumble rates of the Patriots versus the league and what I remember there was a greater disparity between the Pats and the 2nd team than the 2nd team and the other half of teams, that IMO is the smoking gun I know that Belicheck emphasizes ball possession a lot but honestly what HC doesn't? Also players that played for other teams before or after playing for the Pats on average had fewer fumbles how can that be explained?  I don't care what Brady,his agent,and lawyers can do to get a judge to dismiss his suspension because of a technicality he's a cheat and a liar plain and simple and hopefully he just screwed his chances for Canton he needs to stop hiding and man up.

And you know this for a fact?  Where in any of the $3 million dollar report does it say this?

From Judge Berman's 40-page report

Management Council, answered, "If you are asking, your Honor, is there a text or e-mail in which Mr. Brady specifically instructs somebody to put a needle in a football after the game official checked it? No, there is not such direct evidence." Aug. 12,2015 Hr'g Tr. 22:3-9. -page 6

"The Wells Report also summarized testing and analysis performed by Exponent.  Exponent concluded that "the reduction in pressure of the Patriots game balls cannot be explained completely by basic scientific principles, such as the Ideal Gas Law, based on the circumstances and conditions likely to have been present on the day of the AFC Championship Game." Id. at 130. At the same time, the Wells Report acknowledged that "our scientific consultants informed us that the data alone did not provide a basis for them to determine with absolute certainty whether there was or was not tampering, as the analysis of such data is ultimately dependent upon assumptions and information that is uncertain." Id. at 131 (emphasis added). - page 7"

See Table 11 again in the Exponent Report and the explanation of what the psi should've been according to the Ideal gas Law.

Again, if this isn't a glaring weakness of the case against Brady, I guess we'll never agree and you can go on thinking that Brady is a cheater and a Liar.

[jsgolfer]

Yeah, i don't agree.  For the reasons that have been discussed above and numerous times on here.  There's no direct evidence, but a mountain of circumstantial evidence.  Its "clear" in layman's terms.  Any unbiased person looking at these facts would reject the patriot's contention that these guys were talking about reporting weight loss to ESPN and bringing the balls into the bathroom for no reason.

If anyone would have read more than what the ESPN-NFL mouth-breathers say, the text messages were in discussion  after the Jets game.  Where the footballs were inflated to 16 psi.  Brady was pissed, as that was one of his worst games and chewed out McNally and Jastermski.  And of course he's the Deflator, his job is to get the balls to the correct psi that Brady likes it, 12.5 psi.  The footballs get air put in them, McNally and Jastremski do their magic with the surface of the football, then Brady checks them  and then they make sure that they are at the appropriate level (12.5).

Both Brady and McNally said that Tom didn't tell them to take out the air of the footballs after the Refs checked them.

And any unbiased person would also look at the facts and see that the evidence is atrocious.  If you spend $3M and the most you can get is some emails about deflator and non providing of his phone, your argument is pretty week.

[Golfingdad]

You make no sense.  1) if the balls averaged 11.09, and natural causes could only lower them to 11.32...you realize that this means that some of the balls were deflated more than would be caused by temperature changes, right?  I mean, you realize that that actually proves that they did cheat, right?  2)  The average is meaningless as you use it.  If 11 balls were measured, and 10 rated 8PSI while 1 rated 5000PSI, would you say they didn't deflate any balls because the average was higher than 12.5?

If 11.32 was the lowest it should have measured by natural causes, look at Table A-1.  With gauge A, 8 of the 11 balls were deflated beyond that amount.  This is the gauge the Wells report concludes was used before the game to test the balls.  With gauge B, 3 of them were deflated below the natural limits.  So if you ignore all of the other evidence, and assume that the other gauge was used...just because it fits your preferred outcome...then the Patriots stuck pins in 3 of the balls.  That's your best case scenario.

Then look at the last column.  Look at the loss of pressure by the Patriots balls.  Look at the loss of pressure by the Colts balls

No argument from a legal standpoint but I would certainly argue this assertion from a scientific standpoint.  You are making an assumption that the balls were all definitely at or above 12.5 at the start of the game.  And I believe that this is based solely on the word of the referee, right?  There is no log or record or corroboration of the numbers at the start of the game so you can't make such a precise determination at halftime.

You can conclude only that the balls were under 12.5 at some point earlier, that's all.  Whether that was before or after they were originally measured is not, AFAIK, properly documented.  Therefore, it's plausible that they were 12.3 or 12.2 before the game and that they didn't cheat.