USGA Handicap

[dkolo]

  GHIN0011458 said:

I also am under the impression that the club may get $5-$10 for having you as a "member" of that course. Technically a Pro is supposed to sign off on scorecards. Also, if they are a non-profit, then I thought they would have to get all of their money off of their books at the end of the year- I could be wrong on that though. Anyways- you are still worried about a $30. Either pay it, or don't.

Fair enough, I think our disagreement is centered around whether we consider $30 negligible. I don't, you do. It's $40 in my area as best as I can tell anyway. Cheers.

[dbuck]

Not for profits can certainly make money; they don't have to spend it all at the end of the year. I work for a non-profit hospital. Most non-profits are organizations that do not benefit a person or group of persons i. e. stockholders. The money that is made is used to further the mission of the organization. An organization may intend to build a building. They will have to make money in excess of expenses to pay for the capital expenditure. They may accumulate emergency funds to cover periods of low income.

It is also a common misconception that non-profits pay no taxes. While they usually don't pay corporate income taxes on income, they may pay income taxes on unrelated income, or they may have certain segments that are owned by outside partners that are taxable. Non-profits often are subject to certain other taxes depending on the jurisdiction.

[Fourputt]

  dkolo said:

It's kind of crazy that it costs as much as it does to get a handicap. Where does that money go to justify $40+ for the ability to enter scores into a rudimentary website? Golf Digest offers the same thing for free; it's just not official.

I see it like this.  I paid $35 for the season.  The season in Colorado is 8 months - March 15 through November 14.  That breaks down to $4.38 per month.  That seems pretty cheap for any sort of a subscription any more.  It sure isn't worth worrying about.  I want my handicap to be official just for my own information.  I don't even have any plans to play any tournaments at the moment, although I will likely try to partner with one of my old buddies to play as a guest this year in my former men's club's member guest this June.

[RickK]

  awright87 said:

Question: Do you have to be a member of a golf club in order to have a USGA handicap?

I see this thread has gone off in a different direction but your question was answered a couple of times.  No, you do not have to be a member of a club.  Check local golf courses around you and see if they offer a handicapping service such as GHIN.  Many do. I play in a Greater Houston traveling tournament league and with membership to our league we pay for GHIN handicapping service.  A member has to keep his dues paid up and if he does his GHIN service is active.  We have peer review also of scores.

[iacas]

  dkolo said:

You say it's only a round of golf. I say, I can't believe it costs as much as a round of golf to get a handicap. The GHIN website is really basic. It doesn't strike me as something that requires tremendous overhead, at least not enough to justify that high a cost. $30 times however many handicaps every year is a big chunk of change they have coming in. I just sort of question why it's as high as it is is all. Another way: if I paid $30-$40 a year for this, I'd not feel I was seeing where my money was going and consequently getting my money's worth. I'd be happy to hear a better answer for why it's as expensive as it is when the technology seems to have made the system pretty straightforward.

Geez.

It's not much, and here in West Penn Golf Association territory, courses that subscribe to GHIN also get some things taken care of. We rate their courses, for example… And that's included wit the GHIN membership. There's one holdout using some other weird handicapping system (non-GHIN) and they pay for their course to be rated, which… they pass the expense on to their members.

One way or another you're probably paying for it.

If you care enough about golf to PLAY golf regularly enough that you'd consider getting a handicap, $40 is not much. Your driver cost more, your putter cost more, your rounds cost more… the gas you spend driving to the course a few times costs more.

[Lihu]

  iacas said:

It's not much, and here in West Penn Golf Association territory, courses that subscribe to GHIN also get some things taken care of. We rate their courses, for example… And that's included wit the GHIN membership. There's one holdout using some other weird handicapping system (non-GHIN) and they pay for their course to be rated, which… they pass the expense on to their members.

How do the members establish handicaps they can use to compete with other clubs?

[iacas]

  Lihu said:

How do the members establish handicaps they can use to compete with other clubs?

It's still a handicapping system. It's just not GHIN.

Not sure what you're asking if that doesn't answer it…?

[Lihu]

  iacas said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

How do the members establish handicaps they can use to compete with other clubs?

It's still a handicapping system. It's just not GHIN.

Not sure what you're asking if that doesn't answer it…?

That answers it, thanks.

For some reason, I thought it would be difficult to calculate their handicaps playing their course. I can see there is a lot more to learn about course handicaps. . .

[iacas]

  Lihu said:

That answers it, thanks.

For some reason, I thought it would be difficult to calculate their handicaps playing their course. I can see there is a lot more to learn about course handicaps. . .

Anyone can calculate them. If a course has a USGA course rating and slope, you can calculate the stuff. Surely you know this…?

GHIN is not the only system approved to create USGA handicaps. It's the vastly preferred one, AFAIK, but… not the only one.

[Lihu]

  iacas said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

That answers it, thanks.

For some reason, I thought it would be difficult to calculate their handicaps playing their course. I can see there is a lot more to learn about course handicaps. . .

Anyone can calculate them. If a course has a USGA course rating and slope, you can calculate the stuff. Surely you know this…?

GHIN is not the only system approved to create USGA handicaps. It's the vastly preferred one, AFAIK, but… not the only one.

Sure, I get it now.

[turtleback]

  GHIN0011458 said:

I also am under the impression that the club may get $5-$10 for having you as a "member" of that course. Technically a Pro is supposed to sign off on scorecards. Also, if they are a non-profit, then I thought they would have to get all of their money off of their books at the end of the year- I could be wrong on that though. Anyways- you are still worried about a $30. Either pay it, or don't.

Re: the bolded portion- I never heard of such a thing.  Can you elucidate and give us a cite?  I've taken and passed the SCGA Handicap Seminar to get certified as a handicap committee chair and they never mentioned any such requirement that I recall.

[GHIN0011458]

  turtleback said:

Re: the bolded portion- I never heard of such a thing.  Can you elucidate and give us a cite?  I've taken and passed the SCGA Handicap Seminar to get certified as a handicap committee chair and they never mentioned any such requirement that I recall.

I am not sure if it is a set in stone rule to be honest. But the pro of the course that I was associated with previously saw it this way and told me that you had to have it signed by whoever was in the clubhouse - If you're going to go play in a USGA Qualifier under his club name and shoot 90+ then he has to write a letter saying the player had a bad day. He wants to sign off on scorecards before entered into GHIN at his club. The way it was explained to me by him though was that it was supposed to be done. It makes sense that someone would have to verify your level of play but at the same time I have never had a card signed by anyone after that except in tournament rounds.

[Pretzel]

  GHIN0011458 said:

I am not sure if it is a set in stone rule to be honest. But the pro of the course that I was associated with previously saw it this way and told me that you had to have it signed by whoever was in the clubhouse - If you're going to go play in a USGA Qualifier under his club name and shoot 90+ then he has to write a letter saying the player had a bad day. He wants to sign off on scorecards before entered into GHIN at his club. The way it was explained to me by him though was that it was supposed to be done. It makes sense that someone would have to verify your level of play but at the same time I have never had a card signed by anyone after that except in tournament rounds.

He only has to write the letter if you do that and then want to appeal the temporary ban on entering high level tournaments the USGA will hand you. Otherwise the pro wouldn't even be involved, the USGA would just send you a letter saying, "Please don't compete for (insert time period here) because you suck". Obviously it wouldn't say that exactly, but that's the essence of what it would say.

[GHIN0011458]

  Pretzel said:

He only has to write the letter if you do that and then want to appeal the temporary ban on entering high level tournaments the USGA will hand you. Otherwise the pro wouldn't even be involved, the USGA would just send you a letter saying, "Please don't compete for (insert time period here) because you suck". Obviously it wouldn't say that exactly, but that's the essence of what it would say.

I think it was more of a reputation on his part issue with players coming from his course and going into those competitions.

[RFKFREAK]

  Pretzel said:

the USGA would just send you a letter saying, "Please don't compete for (insert time period here) because you suck".

[IMG]http://cutestuff.co/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/cute-cat-laughing.jpg[/IMG]

[turtleback]

The pro is way out of compliance with the USGA rules if he is not allowing scores to be posted for which the player has not turned in a card, let alone had it signed by him.  He can make that a condition of him writing any letter or anything, but he has absolutely no right to restrict posting.

The Decisions on this are pretty clear:

Quote:

5-2a/3. Requiring the Return of Scorecards for Handicap Purposes

Q: May a Handicap Committee require the returning of scorecards from players in order for a score to be posted?

A: No. However, scorecards may be requested periodically if the Handicap Committee wishes to sample the accuracy with which players are adjusting scores. In any case, the club must not take punitive action regarding the scoring record or the Handicap Index if a scorecard does not accompany a score.

It also appears as if the pro is acting in the capacity of the chair of the handicap committee, since he is making decisions about what can and cannot be posted.  This is also a problem as the USGA specifically prohibits owners and employees from being the chair of the handicap committee:

Quote:

8-1/1. Status of Owners and Employees

Q: In the definition of Handicap Committee, it states that an employee may not serve as Handicap Chairperson. Is the owner of a golf club considered an employee?  Or an employee of a third party that assists in the operation
of a golf club?  Or an employee of a municipality that owns/operates a golf course?

A: In each of these cases, as well as that of a club professional, the person referenced is in a position where pleasing club members is a key responsibility. This makes it difficult for such a person to play an impartial role. These "employees" are not eligible to chair the Handicap Committee of a golf club where they are "employed."

And I do not buy that the USGA would even be interested in a letter from the pro in such a case.  They would want to hear from the handicap chair which, as indicated above, CANNOT be the pro.

Unfortunately this sounds like just another case of a pro thinking he knew more than he did, or just not caring.  Kind of like some of the ridiculous rules "decisions" that members here have reported having been made by their club's pro from time to time.  Or the ones who think it is OK to mark their course any which way.

When it comes to rules, both playing and handicap, the old 60s slogan, "Question Authority" should always apply.  Make them show it to you in black and white.

[GHIN0011458]

  turtleback said:

The pro is way out of compliance with the USGA rules if he is not allowing scores to be posted for which the player has not turned in a card, let alone had it signed by him.  He can make that a condition of him writing any letter or anything, but he has absolutely no right to restrict posting.

The Decisions on this are pretty clear:

It also appears as if the pro is acting in the capacity of the chair of the handicap committee, since he is making decisions about what can and cannot be posted.  This is also a problem as the USGA specifically prohibits owners and employees from being the chair of the handicap committee:

And I do not buy that the USGA would even be interested in a letter from the pro in such a case.  They would want to hear from the handicap chair which, as indicated above, CANNOT be the pro.

Unfortunately this sounds like just another case of a pro thinking he knew more than he did, or just not caring.  Kind of like some of the ridiculous rules "decisions" that members here have reported having been made by their club's pro from time to time.  Or the ones who think it is OK to mark their course any which way.

When it comes to rules, both playing and handicap, the old 60s slogan, "Question Authority" should always apply.  Make them show it to you in black and white.

Could be. At the end of the day he actually was let go when new management took over last year maybe he just wanted to control too much. I wasn't going to over think it just sign the card and I will go ahead and enter it into the system. Either way I wish they would have a way to govern sandbagging and vanity capping more with something like this. Anyone can enter in any score.. I hate vanity capping more than anything in the world I think.  I doubt this course even had a committee it was a public course with very few actual members. I mean to me, it wasn't worth 30 minutes of him proving it to me vs 20 seconds of him signing it and me entering.

I think the USGA would want someone to verify that they have played with the person or know what the person is capable of shooting. If someone who is certified signs off on it then it is more believable than anyone who wants to vanity cap to play a nice course then make up some story.

[Fourputt]

  GHIN0011458 said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtleback

The pro is way out of compliance with the USGA rules if he is not allowing scores to be posted for which the player has not turned in a card, let alone had it signed by him.  He can make that a condition of him writing any letter or anything, but he has absolutely no right to restrict posting.

The Decisions on this are pretty clear:

It also appears as if the pro is acting in the capacity of the chair of the handicap committee, since he is making decisions about what can and cannot be posted.  This is also a problem as the USGA specifically prohibits owners and employees from being the chair of the handicap committee:

And I do not buy that the USGA would even be interested in a letter from the pro in such a case.  They would want to hear from the handicap chair which, as indicated above, CANNOT be the pro.

Unfortunately this sounds like just another case of a pro thinking he knew more than he did, or just not caring.  Kind of like some of the ridiculous rules "decisions" that members here have reported having been made by their club's pro from time to time.  Or the ones who think it is OK to mark their course any which way.

When it comes to rules, both playing and handicap, the old 60s slogan, "Question Authority" should always apply.  Make them show it to you in black and white.

Could be. At the end of the day he actually was let go when new management took over last year maybe he just wanted to control too much. I wasn't going to over think it just sign the card and I will go ahead and enter it into the system. Either way I wish they would have a way to govern sandbagging and vanity capping more with something like this. Anyone can enter in any score.. I hate vanity capping more than anything in the world I think.  I doubt this course even had a committee it was a public course with very few actual members. I mean to me, it wasn't worth 30 minutes of him proving it to me vs 20 seconds of him signing it and me entering.

I think the USGA would want someone to verify that they have played with the person or know what the person is capable of shooting. If someone who is certified signs off on it then it is more believable than anyone who wants to vanity cap to play a nice course then make up some story.

Prevention of handicap manipulation requires a couple of things.  It takes active oversight by a handicap committee, and it requires regular participation by a player in verifiable rounds played.  In the US that usually means that he plays in regular competitions in which the handicap committee can review and manage the returned scores.

My men's club had one member who turned his 20 qualifying rounds over on a monthly basis by constant casual play, and that play was not at our tournament course.  He returned cards from all over the state, but never from our home course, so nobody could really see what he was doing, or if he was really even playing all of those rounds.  This way he briefly got away with sandbagging a few tournaments.  With 3 weeks to a month between tournaments played, he was able to erase virtually all of his low 80's and mid to high 70's tournament scores to keep his handicap at 13, yet he won 3 straight flighted competitions by 4-5 strokes per round.  He was so blatant about it that it was obvious to everyone what he was doing, and he didn't even care when he was called a sandbagger to his face.  The committee ultimately caught up with him, adjusted his handicap to only include tournament scores, and he got pissed and dropped out of the club.

Had this player played his casual golf on the home course, he'd have been observed at least some of the time, and he'd likely have been caught even sooner.  I just feel sorry for the next victim he selected.  He had a personality that wasn't going to change.  If he found a club that was not as well policed as ours was, he could have gotten away with it for a long time - or until someone killed him over it.