Competitor Asked to Lift Ball?

[mw008008]

In a stroke play tournament, my ball (A) was just off the fringe, and a fellow competitor's ball (B) was on the fringe, directly in my intended line of play for my chip shot. I asked him to mark his ball, to which he refused claiming "you cannot mark a ball unless it is on the green." From what I understand, as I requested his ball to be marked and lifted, he MUST lift his ball or incur a 2 stroke penalty under rule 22-2. The other two competitors were in disagreement, and in order to maintain our pace of play policy I played a shot which hit his ball and deflected into a nearby bunker. I immediately called for the 2 stroke penalty to be assessed, but nobody was in agreement about how to proceed. I ended up playing a second ball (C) from the original spot, and played out both balls to await a decision in the clubhouse after the round.

As far as i know, the 2 stroke penalty was never assessed, and i was told to take the score of my original ball (A) by the committee in the clubhouse.

Your thoughts?

[Dormie1360]

The player who failed to lift his ball should have been disqualified under Rule 3-4.

R22-2 is quite clear and says nothing about a ball having to be on the putting surface.

The two stroke penalty listed under Rule 22-2 are for lifting a ball while another ball is in motion or for failure to replace in the correct spot.

As far as you subsequently playing and striking the ball, that is covered under Rule R18-5 Ball at rest moved by another ball.  You would play your ball as it lies.

3-4 . Refusal to Comply with a Rule

If a competitor refuses to comply with a Rule affecting the rights of another competitor , he is disqualified.

[mw008008]

The player who failed to lift his ball should have been disqualified under Rule 3-4.

R22-2 is quite clear and says nothing about a ball having to be on the putting surface.

The two stroke penalty listed under Rule 22-2 are for lifting a ball while another ball is in motion or for failure to replace in the correct spot.

As far as you subsequently playing and striking the ball, that is covered under Rule R18-5 Ball at rest moved by another ball.  You would play your ball as it lies.

3-4 . Refusal to Comply with a Rule

If a competitor refuses to comply with a Rule affecting the rights of another competitor, he is disqualified.

As for my score on the hole, which score should have been taken, A or B?

[mw008008]

What about my score for the hole since there was disagreement about how to proceed after my original ball (A) hit the competitor's ball (B)? Should the score from B be taken, or ball C (replayed the original shot that struck ball B)?

[joekelly]

No expert here, but fully agree that Rule 22-2 (have rule book in hand) requires fellow to lift if interference with your play. However, i cannot figure out what happens if fellow refuses to lift except that he gets 2 penalty strokes.  As you describe, he refused, you played and hit his ball. Result for you not good.  He gets the 2 penalty  strokes but you suffer too.

I would agree also that playing the second provisional ball, after his ball cleared away seems logical. Then consultation with  authorities after the match. Seems your committee is not on track in this case.  They would have the rule book and plenty of time to read it and yet f*ck up. Golf is tough.

[Dormie1360]

What about my score for the hole since there was disagreement about how to proceed after my original ball (A) hit the competitor's ball (B)? Should the score from B be taken, or ball C (replayed the original shot that struck ball B)?

The player who's ball that was struck would normally replace his ball.  As I said, it's rather moot because he would be DQ'd after the round.

The striking ball, yours, would be played as it lies.

There are no stroke penalties associated with what happened.

[mw008008]

The striking ball, yours, would be played as it lies.

Why should I be penalized for an action the gets my competitor DQ'd?

Not that it much matters, but the original ball that struck the competitor's ball wound up with triple bogey, (took an unplayable because the bunker had a high lip) whereas the the provisional ball wound up with par.

[Dormie1360]

Why should I be penalized for an action the gets my competitor DQ'd?

Not that it much matters, but the original ball that struck the competitor's ball wound up with triple bogey, (took an unplayable because the bunker had a high lip) whereas the the provisional ball wound up with par.

I here what you are saying, but I can't think of anything in the rules or decisions that would allow a cancel and reply in your scenario.  Not that there isn't something, but nothing comes to mind.  My brain is old.

[ColinL]

When your FC refused to mark and lift his ball, you could  have simply let him play first: he had that  right anyway.  See Rule 22-1b:

In stroke play, a player required to lift his ball may play first rather than lift the ball.

Rather less tactful would have been to lift his ball yourself and tell him it was a movable obstruction.

In terms of what you did in playing a second ball, I'm afraid you got the procedure wrong and the original ball would have to count.  Rule 3-3 requires you to invoke the procedure for a situation in doubt before you take any further action.  By playing your original ball and only deciding to play a second ball when you saw the outcome, you had taken ''further action" and lost your chance to invoke 3-3.  The time to have done was before making the stroke. The only good news is that in those circumstances, there is no penalty for having wrongly played the second ball.

Rule 3-3 is worth looking at  as the required procedure is quite detailed.

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-03

As John said, your FC should have been disqualified.

[Fourputt]

The OP should have been carrying a rule book to show his fellow competitors just how wrong they were.  Lacking that, then he should have known the proper procedure under rule 3-3 for playing a second ball.  Since he did neither, he paid a stiff price for his inability to ensure that the hole was played out as the rules require.

[Asheville]

The OP should have been carrying a rule book to show his fellow competitors just how wrong they were.  Lacking that, then he should have known the proper procedure under rule 3-3 for playing a second ball.  Since he did neither, he paid a stiff price for his inability to ensure that the hole was played out as the rules require.

Well put, Rick. As OldBogey, too, observed, "If players don't bother to learn the Rules, they can expect to be disadvantaged by their ignorance."

Enough of the moralizing, however. Incidents like this are sometimes sufficient to encourage a player to take a real interest in the Rules.

[Dormie1360]

What also concerns me is the rules knowledge of the "committees".  Isn't this the second recent question where the guys running the tournament were clueless?

[bkuehn1952]

What also concerns me is the rules knowledge of the "committees".  Isn't this the second recent question where the guys running the tournament were clueless?

I am not condoning this approach but I think sometimes "committees" consider the respective places the competitors finished.  If "Refuses to follow the Rules" guy finished tied for 14th place in the 4th flight and the victim was similarly situated, telling people they are DQ'ed just creates strife.

At minimum, they should have gone over the procedure of playing a 2nd ball with the OP so next time he runs into "Refuses to follow the Rules" guy, he can correctly save himself from the consequences.

[Dormie1360]

I am not condoning this approach but I think sometimes "committees" consider the respective places the competitors finished.  If "Refuses to follow the Rules" guy finished tied for 14th place in the 4th flight and the victim was similarly situated, telling people they are DQ'ed just creates strife.

At minimum, they should have gone over the procedure of playing a 2nd ball with the OP so next time he runs into "Refuses to follow the Rules" guy, he can correctly save himself from the consequences.

I see this at the club level where the Club Pro really doesn't want to  DQ a member, especially when it doesn't really matter.  My rules side would just say, at the very least, make sure everyone understood the rule.

Colin made a good point, just let the guy play first.  If he also refused to do that, I'm really losing any sympathy for him.  Rick's point is valid in that everyone should have a rule book in their bag.  Also, on the club level, if your having trouble with a rule call the proshop.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkuehn1952

I am not condoning this approach but I think sometimes "committees" consider the respective places the competitors finished.  If "Refuses to follow the Rules" guy finished tied for 14th place in the 4th flight and the victim was similarly situated, telling people they are DQ'ed just creates strife.

At minimum, they should have gone over the procedure of playing a 2nd ball with the OP so next time he runs into "Refuses to follow the Rules" guy, he can correctly save himself from the consequences.

I see this at the club level where the Club Pro really doesn't want to  DQ a member, especially when it doesn't really matter.  My rules side would just say, at the very least, make sure everyone understood the rule.

Colin made a good point, just let the guy play first.  If he also refused to do that, I'm really losing any sympathy for him.  Rick's point is valid in that everyone should have a rule book in their bag.  Also, on the club level, if your having trouble with a rule call the proshop.

Tournaments need to be self managed.  The men's club I was in didn't turn to the pro for rulings, we managed rules situations ourselves.  Our Board of Directors had a Rules chairman, and all tournament committees had access to rules information within the club membership.

One year we had a difficult situation, but it was still handled as the rules required.  That year, the course for some reason had reversed the sides on last round of the club championship - we started on 10 and finished on 9.  The last group included the 4 players who were leading championship flight, so they were essentially playing for the title.  The two who were one and two on the leaderboard exchanged cards for scoring as the club rules required.  For some reason, both of them failed to mark the cards in the right order.  Both players marked the back nine on the front nine  for the card, and front was marked for back.  Because that resulted in the wrong hole score on nearly every hole, and both players signed and returned the cards without catching the mistake, both were disqualified, and the 3rd place finisher wound up Club Champion.  There was a lot of discussion over that in our board meetings that winter, and it was determined that if such a situation was to happen again, the committee would institute some sort method to ensure that the everyone was warned at check-in about the proper way to enter scores.  Since those 2 were the only ones out of 250 players who did it wrong, it would have been unreasonable to let them skate.

[arturo28mx]

A competitor may ask you to mark and lift your ball anywhere on the course, but if you are outside the green you are not allowed to clean the ball!!! You must put it back as it was.