Should The US Government Have The Right To Spy On Their Own Citizens?

[newtogolf]

More to the point of corporations and privacy:

I also think this is TED talk is worth 20 minutes for those of you who think government surveillence is okay because you're not doing anything wrong:

Along the same lines:

and

https://www.aclu.org/blog/qa-daniel-solove-how-bad-security-arguments-are-undermining-our-privacy-rights?redirect=blog/technology-and-liberty/qa-daniel-solove-how-bad-security-arguments-are-undermining-our-privacy

and

http://archive.wired.com/politics/security/commentary/securitymatters/2006/05/70886

Great post, people don't understand that not only criminals or terrorists have things they might not known or used against them by our government.

[Golfingdad]

Don't get me wrong, I fly fairly often and want air travel to be safe for all of us but I don't believe the measures put in place by TSA and Homeland security do much more than ADT signs on your front lawn provide you in terms of home security.   As you wrote, we didn't check shoes until the shoe bomber, we didn't check liquids until a incident occurred.  Will the measures in place stop a bomber who surgically implants C4 into an artificial limb or their abdomen?

This isn't a shot at Obama either as I know TSA was formed under GW, so it's not political it's about wasting taxpayer money, infringing on our rights, having people of questionable backgrounds rummaging through our luggage and in the end providing us with little benefit or assurance of safer air travel.

I'm with you ... however, I don't think the inconvenience of shoe or belt removing qualifies as spying or a rights infringement.  It's just a stupid hassle and a waste of time.

We might not like them spying on us, but we definitely like them having the tech for it ... http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jun/4/air-force-bombs-islamic-state-hq-building-after-te/#.VXBK2Q2SrVU.twitter

[krupa]

In my opinion, there is no valid privacy argument that starts "if you're not doing anything wrong..."

[newtogolf]

I'm with you ... however, I don't think the inconvenience of shoe or belt removing qualifies as spying or a rights infringement.  It's just a stupid hassle and a waste of time.

We might not like them spying on us, but we definitely like them having the tech for it ... http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jun/4/air-force-bombs-islamic-state-hq-building-after-te/#.VXBK2Q2SrVU.twitter

I love them having the tech and fully support them spying internationally.  They just shouldn't use that technology to spy on "legal citizens" of the USA.

[Jeremie Boop]

I love them having the tech and fully support them spying internationally.  They just shouldn't use that technology to spy on "legal citizens" of the USA.

Because there's never been "legal citizens" who have done horrible things that we would love to have stopped before the happened?

[newtogolf]

Because there's never been "legal citizens" who have done horrible things that we would love to have stopped before the happened?

I'm not talking about people of interest who the government could obtain a legal warrant to spy on.

This thread is about the mass collection of data (video, web activity, texts, email, phone conversations) by the Intelligence Agencies without our knowledge or consent and in some cases without the knowledge of our elected officials.

[Jeremie Boop]

I'm not talking about people of interest who the government could obtain a legal warrant to spy on.

This thread is about the mass collection of data (video, web activity, texts, email, phone conversations) by the Intelligence Agencies without our knowledge or consent and in some cases without the knowledge of our elected officials.

I'm not talking about people that the government already know about, I'm talking about those who've plotted and executed attacks inside of our borders that weren't known to be a threat prior.

*edit* I'm not saying we should be giving the government carte blanche in regards to information collection. I'm just pointing out that people typically won't have a problem with these methods when used to stop bad things from happening. The trouble is, it's not possible to always know who needs to be watched.

[k-troop]

This thread is about the mass collection of data (video, web activity, texts, email, phone conversations) by the Intelligence Agencies without our knowledge or consent and in some cases without the knowledge of our elected officials.

The article posted in the OP is about the FBI, which is not an intelligence agency.

[newtogolf]

The article posted in the OP is about the FBI, which is not an intelligence agency.

They aren't an agency but they are a member of the US Intelligence Community, same difference.

[Golfingdad]

The trouble is, it's not possible to always know who needs to be watched.

Nor is it always possible for us to appreciate the gravity of things that didn't happen.  If they do watch the right people and do get the right info and stop another OKC bombing from happening or something along those lines, it's usually below-the-fold or second page news.  And even if it is on top, it's not accompanied by pictures of anything substantial (certainly not a firefighter holding a bloody baby), and its out of the news by the next day so we take it for granted.

[Jeremie Boop]

Nor is it always possible for us to appreciate the gravity of things that didn't happen.  If they do watch the right people and do get the right info and stop another OKC bombing from happening or something along those lines, it's usually below-the-fold or second page news.  And even if it is on top, it's not accompanied by pictures of anything substantial (certainly not a firefighter holding a bloody baby), and its out of the news by the next day so we take it for granted.

That's also a good point.

[CR McDivot]

Please list the specific criminal or terrorist activities intercepted and prosecuted compared to the number of individuals civil rights violated in the collection of this data.

Yeah, thought so!

Those who would give up essential Liberty , to purchase a little temporary Safety , deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

• This was first written by Franklin for the Pennsylvania Assembly in its Reply to the Governor (11 Nov. 1755)

Carry on.

[CR McDivot]

In the unique circumstance of the Independence of the British colonies in America, government was forcefully demoted from master and relegated to the servant of the People. Servants, and therefore the servile governments have no rights, only delegated responsibilities to their master.

In America that Master was identified as the citizenry under God Almighty.

Think not? Read the Declaration.

[turtleback]

I'm with you ... however, I don't think the inconvenience of shoe or belt removing qualifies as spying or a rights infringement.  It's just a stupid hassle and a waste of time.

We might not like them spying on us, but we definitely like them having the tech for it ... http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jun/4/air-force-bombs-islamic-state-hq-building-after-te/#.VXBK2Q2SrVU.twitter

IMO what happens in airports is not security, it is security theater.  Particularly in light of the recent revelation that in a test the "security" failed in 95% of the attempts.

But you are right that it isn't spying  Just as what happened in the story you linked to wasn't spying.  I hope we can agree that the government has the right to look at facebook pages and twitter messages and other social media.  Because THAT is what happened in the cited case, not spying.

Now why they chose to announce how they got the intelligence that led to us taking out that building is beyond me.  Why would they tip off the enemy as to how we knew?  It smacked far too much of a victory lap shouting about how damn clever we were.  When all we accomplished by making that revelation is ensuring that no more action-worthy selfies will be posted by anyone at ISIS.

Thank goodness we kept the whole Ultra thing under better wraps in WW2.

[saevel25]

IMO what happens in airports is not security, it is security theater.  Particularly in light of the recent revelation that in a test the "security" failed in 95% of the attempts.

But you are right that it isn't spying  Just as what happened in the story you linked to wasn't spying.  I hope we can agree that the government has the right to look at facebook pages and twitter messages and other social media.

Yea TSA needs to revamp their system there.

I would say they have the right if the people set their pages up to be viewed by the public. If the privacy settings are set to friends only, then they should require a warrant to view the page or given permission by the person.

[Mac62]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I'm with you ... however, I don't think the inconvenience of shoe or belt removing qualifies as spying or a rights infringement.  It's just a stupid hassle and a waste of time.

We might not like them spying on us, but we definitely like them having the tech for it ... http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jun/4/air-force-bombs-islamic-state-hq-building-after-te/#.VXBK2Q2SrVU.twitter

IMO what happens in airports is not security, it is security theater.  Particularly in light of the recent revelation that in a test the "security" failed in 95% of the attempts.

But you are right that it isn't spying  Just as what happened in the story you linked to wasn't spying.  I hope we can agree that the government has the right to look at facebook pages and twitter messages and other social media.  Because THAT is what happened in the cited case, not spying.

Now why they chose to announce how they got the intelligence that led to us taking out that building is beyond me.  Why would they tip off the enemy as to how we knew?  It smacked far too much of a victory lap shouting about how damn clever we were.  When all we accomplished by making that revelation is ensuring that no more action-worthy selfies will be posted by anyone at ISIS.

Thank goodness we kept the whole Ultra thing under better wraps in WW2.

Operational security has gone out the window in favor of grandstanding in front of TV cameras for approval ratings.  When the Iraq/Syria air campaign started, they (our current administration) disclosed just about everything short of publishing daily flight schedules.  What resources were committed, where the operational theater was, what would be targeted, etc.  What, did they suppose that terrorists don't watch television???  If enemies want to know what the American military is planning/doing, all they have to do is have a couple TVs tuned in to our news stations - they'll get a more thorough and complete intel dump than they could ever get from having people on the ground here sneaking and peeking.

As far as the spying stuff, the 'bright line' is much less clear when it comes to domestic surveillance/intel gathering.  I actually want the locals and feds to have their ears to the ground, sniffing around to see what bad things are going on.  It's what they're supposed to be doing.  Whether it's a school shooting in a small town or a mass-casualty chemical weapon attack on a large city, I'd much rather they caught it beforehand than mopped up afterward.  What I don't want is unmarked vans parked across the street from my house and black helicopters circling overhead because I made a disparaging remark about the President in an e-mail or text message to somebody.  There's a difference between intel gathering and witch hunting, which is why there needs to be oversight and checks & balances in place.

[Scotsclaff]

This is only a start and it will get worse.

When do we make a stand?? Once they've installed cameras in our toilets because that's where it's headed.

If you think the NSA is exclusively after the terrorists,wake up!!

This is a money making project nothing more nothing less but don't forget it's for your own good.