2016 Ryder Cup Discussion Thread

[iacas]

1 minute ago, DeadMan said:

No Laying Up had a good article on why Jim Furyk should not be allowed on the Ryder Cup team: http://nolayingup.com/2016/08/20/case-jim-furyk-2016-us-ryder-cup-team/

His record is abysmal. He'll probably still make the team because Davis Love knows him and is comfortable with him. And I will point to his pick as a reason the American team sucks in this event year after year.

I think perhaps Jim is comfortable with top ten finishes, but doesn't close things out very well. Obviously he's won some big events, a single major, etc. But generally, perhaps he's simply not a very good pressure player. His skills put him in position often, but he wins less often than a pressure player who gave himself fewer chances might.

[Wansteadimp]

On 8/21/2016 at 4:55 PM, Scotsclaff said:

The top 8 for the Euro team are confirmed.Matt Fitzpatrick booked his place after a top 10 finish at the Czech Masters,Andy Sullivan has some work to do.

Westwood will need a captains pick from Darren Clarke.

Jim Furyk is really pushing for a place in the US team.

Top 9 confirmed with Knox playing in the US, the only remaining counting tournament is the Made in Denmark.

I would have thought Westwood is certain to be a pick. The only other two players with experience I can see Clarke considering are Kaymer and Dubuisson, the latter purely because the next Ryder Cup is in France, it would be a rubbish decision though.

The rookies up for picks are I suppose Knox, Pieters, Lowry & Olesen but 7 rookies would be an awful lot.

I would hope he goes for Westwood, Kaymer & Knox.

[DeadMan]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

I think perhaps Jim is comfortable with top ten finishes, but doesn't close things out very well. Obviously he's won some big events, a single major, etc. But generally, perhaps he's simply not a very good pressure player. His skills put him in position often, but he wins less often than a pressure player who gave himself fewer chances might.

Very possible. His slow play could be an outward manifestation of being a bad pressure player, too. It's hard to know for sure, obviously. The weird thing is his fourball record is so bad, but that's the format with the least pressure at the Ryder Cup because you have a partner.

I also wonder if this could be a Tiger effect. Players in Furyk's generation never got used to winning because Tiger won so much? So they would get in contention but never win. That has to create scar tissue. It could also explain why the Ryder Cup team has been so bad in this millennium. I'm also overstating things, though. Tiger won at a historic clip, but he wasn't winning every time he teed it up. Just spitballing.

It would be interesting to think of a stat that could show being a poor pressure player. Maybe wins vs. strokes gained? I.e., based on strokes gained, we'd expect Furyk to have x number of wins, but he only has x-10 number of wins? Maybe even something simple like closing out leads? Or win % when you start the 4th round within 4 strokes of the leader? It would be interesting to see how that stacks up.

[natureboy]

31 minutes ago, iacas said:

I think perhaps Jim is comfortable with top ten finishes, but doesn't close things out very well. Obviously he's won some big events, a single major, etc. But generally, perhaps he's simply not a very good pressure player. His skills put him in position often, but he wins less often than a pressure player who gave himself fewer chances might.

I know this the 'official rap' on Furyk, but couldn't it all just come down to his relative lack of power?

His game strikes me a bit like the 'slow and steady' turtle. Good for consistent Top 10 finishes, but lacking the extra gear of someone with more power to get more aggressive with pulling driver or going for a green in 2 down the stretch of a tight tournament. I think this is similar to how Stenson was 'close but not quite' a lot earlier in the year, only more extreme because Furyk hits his driver shorter than Stenson's reliable 3-wood.

The distance disadvantage means he has to really be 'on' with all aspects of his game to have a winning edge across 4 days. This may translate to match play too where he doesn't have as much option to take risks to win holes.

Edited August 22, 2016 by natureboy

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, natureboy said:

I know this the 'official rap' on Furyk, but couldn't it all just come down to his relative lack of power?

His game strikes me a bit like the 'slow and steady' turtle. Good for consistent Top 10 finishes, but lacking the extra gear of someone with more power to get more aggressive with pulling driver or going for a green in 2 down the stretch of a tight tournament. I think this is similar to how Stenson was 'close but not quite' a lot earlier in the year, only more extreme because Furyk hits his driver shorter than Stenson's reliable 3-wood.

The distance disadvantage means he has to really be 'on' with all aspects of his game to have a winning edge across 4 days. This may translate to match play too where he doesn't have as much option to take risks to win holes.

If a guy can shoot 58 and 59, he can certainly get hot, so I don't think it has to do with relative lack of power, no. 58 and 59 are not "slow and steady." I think it has to do with how he performs in clutch moments.

Scott Hoch was a money-making machine. They called him "ATM" for awhile. Yet his most famous thing is a missed teeny putt at Augusta National.

[Hazsa]

On 11 March 2016 at 4:54 PM, ev780 said:

The Ryder cup has always been a bucket list thing for me and I drew International Pavilion tickets this year.  Yay me. Expensive tickets I know but at least I will have real bathrooms, food and a place to hide from the weather. I can't find a map that shows where this pavilion is located.  Anybody seen one yet?

My buddy and I have never been to a Ryder cup. Any tips or advice?

 

I hope your experience is better than mine was. Day 1 at Celtic Manor, anyone remember how that went? I'm still wet from that day.

[CarlSpackler]

There are players that seem to rise to the occasion of The Ryder Cup. Furyk is not one of them. I like the guy, but put me down for a no vote on a captains pick on him.

[Scotsclaff]

6 hours ago, Wansteadimp said:

Top 9 confirmed with Knox playing in the US, the only remaining counting tournament is the Made in Denmark.

I would have thought Westwood is certain to be a pick. The only other two players with experience I can see Clarke considering are Kaymer and Dubuisson, the latter purely because the next Ryder Cup is in France, it would be a rubbish decision though.

The rookies up for picks are I suppose Knox, Pieters, Lowry & Olesen but 7 rookies would be an awful lot.

I would hope he goes for Westwood, Kaymer & Knox.

Dubuisson would be a very poor pick,poor form at the moment.

I would think Westwood would be a shoe-in as he is close to the top ten and his ryder cup pedigree is tremendous.I can see him being paired with young Fitzpatrick and Rosie with Andy Sullivan.

Pieters, Knox and Oleson are in great form just now,all coming close or winning in the last few weeks and all are great putters.

Mcdowell and Donald both played very well at the Travelers but it's too late for them I feel.

Lowery and Kaymer are both playing in Denmark this week so it's obvious they still have intent.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Scotsclaff

[Scotsclaff]

Error on above post.

Should read Wyndham and not Travelers.

[natureboy]

9 hours ago, iacas said:

If a guy can shoot 58 and 59, he can certainly get hot, so I don't think it has to do with relative lack of power, no. 58 and 59 are not "slow and steady." I think it has to do with how he performs in clutch moments.

Scott Hoch was a money-making machine. They called him "ATM" for awhile. Yet his most famous thing is a missed teeny putt at Augusta National.

But even that historic round on a somewhat shorter PGA course didn't put him in the lead. He made those scores with spectacular approach play and excellent putting. Sure he can get hot with either the irons or the putter regularly enough to consistently make cuts and finish high, but he has to get crazy hot with the putter and the irons at the same time to go that low.

If only one is sharp on the day and he's 20-30 yards behind his Ryder Cup opponent (a top tier golfer no matter who) who's more likely to birdie? If he's significantly shorter doesn't he have to be quite a bit more precise to win the par-5 holes?

Didn't he win the FedEx Cup and a U.S. Open? Isn't any win on Tour a 'clutch moment'? He's done that 15 other times.

I'm not saying that Furk hasn't punched below his weight ranking-wise in the Ryder Cup. Maybe he's just not been used smartly. Match play is a different animal than stroke play and I expect his relative lack of length has hurt him in being able to take chances to win holes vs lower ranked, but longer players. I expect the European team has been much more analytical about their approach to pairings and opponent match-ups.

Didn't even know who Scott Hoch was. He won 11 times, beating Furyk interestingly in a playoff at Doral - a long course by reputation. I expect that he out-drove Furyk to hold him off on the final holes and pull away during the playoff (giving himself more / better looks) kind of like Fowler did with Stenson at the Deutsche Bank last year. His Ryder cup results weren't great in 2002. Tiger halved a match against Parnevik. Ryder Cup / match play is different.

Edited August 23, 2016 by natureboy

[iacas]

Cool. I disagree.

Others have had success in the Ryder Cup without being long hitters (Luke Donald, the only player I even bothered to check, is 8-2-1). I don't think Furyk is a pressure player.

If you didn't know who Scott Hoch was… well, that's revealing, I suppose.

[natureboy]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Cool. I disagree.

Others have had success in the Ryder Cup without being long hitters (Luke Donald, the only player I even bothered to check, is 8-2-1). I don't think Furyk is a pressure player.

If you didn't know who Scott Hoch was… well, that's revealing, I suppose.

Donald is an interesting counter-example (actually 10-4-1). Until recently he's been an exceptional putter where Furyk's more average to good.

	Furyk				Donald
	SG-Tee	SG-Putt	SG-Appr	SG-ARG	SG-Tee	SG-Putt	SG-Appr	SG-ARG
2016	-0.294	0.195	0.458	0.285	-0.583	0.060	0.645	0.449
2015	0.064	-0.024	1.081	0.513	-0.793	0.289	0.573	0.514
2014	0.121	0.091	1.175	0.408	-0.493	0.517	0.315	0.351
2013	0.023	0.092	0.950	0.323	-0.459	0.528	0.583	0.628
2012	0.225	0.423	0.830	0.275	-0.188	0.818	0.582	0.430
2011	-0.017	-0.160	0.643	0.190	0.040	0.870	1.094	0.273
2010	0.150	0.402	0.641	0.367	-0.506	0.870	0.661	0.464
AVG	0.039	0.146	0.825	0.337	-0.426	0.565	0.636	0.444

That may underscore the relative value of relative putting skill for match play. It does seem based on the record that Donald has been a bit more clutch considering his tee deficit (you'd expect that to show up in his singles record. He even beat Bubba). Their singles records are fairly comparable and solid for the number of matches they've each played. Furyk is terrible in fourball and weak in foursomes, while Donald shines in foursomes and has mostly been sat for fourball matches. To me that speaks significantly to his relative strengths being better used by his captains to match the game format and/or complement his partner.

Cant access now, but I'd be curious if their birdie/bogey ratio was similar or different. If Donald was noted for being 'clutch', why did he he get passed over for Poulter in '14?

Yes, not knowing about Scott Hoch is revealing of when I started following golf. He's never been a big 'name' player, and since his PGA days preceded my interest I never really heard about him. He's not really part of the current conversation of commentators about the history (or recent history) of the game.

Edited August 23, 2016 by natureboy

[Scotsclaff]

6 hours ago, natureboy said:

Donald is an interesting counter-example (actually 10-4-1). Until recently he's been an exceptional putter where Furyk's more average to good.

	Furyk				Donald
	SG-Tee	SG-Putt	SG-Appr	SG-ARG	SG-Tee	SG-Putt	SG-Appr	SG-ARG
2016	-0.294	0.195	0.458	0.285	-0.583	0.060	0.645	0.449
2015	0.064	-0.024	1.081	0.513	-0.793	0.289	0.573	0.514
2014	0.121	0.091	1.175	0.408	-0.493	0.517	0.315	0.351
2013	0.023	0.092	0.950	0.323	-0.459	0.528	0.583	0.628
2012	0.225	0.423	0.830	0.275	-0.188	0.818	0.582	0.430
2011	-0.017	-0.160	0.643	0.190	0.040	0.870	1.094	0.273
2010	0.150	0.402	0.641	0.367	-0.506	0.870	0.661	0.464
AVG	0.039	0.146	0.825	0.337	-0.426	0.565	0.636	0.444

That may underscore the relative value of relative putting skill for match play. It does seem based on the record that Donald has been a bit more clutch considering his tee deficit (you'd expect that to show up in his singles record. He even beat Bubba). Their singles records are fairly comparable and solid for the number of matches they've each played. Furyk is terrible in fourball and weak in foursomes, while Donald shines in foursomes and has mostly been sat for fourball matches. To me that speaks significantly to his relative strengths being better used by his captains to match the game format and/or complement his partner.

Cant access now, but I'd be curious if their birdie/bogey ratio was similar or different. If Donald was noted for being 'clutch', why did he he get passed over for Poulter in '14?

Yes, not knowing about Scott Hoch is revealing of when I started following golf. He's never been a big 'name' player, and since his PGA days preceded my interest I never really heard about him. He's not really part of the current conversation of commentators about the history (or recent history) of the game.

Hoch's claim to fame is handing the Masters to Faldo.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Scotsclaff said:

Hoch's claim to fame is handing the Masters to Faldo.

See? He knew.

Furyk is a bit of a choker.

[Big C]

Add me to the list of those who would prefer to not see Furyk anywhere near a US Ryder Cup roster. I agree with @iacas that he seems to be unable to handle the pressure associated with the event. 

[Golfingdad]

59 minutes ago, Big C said:

Add me to the list of those who would prefer to not see Furyk anywhere near a US Ryder Cup roster. I agree with @iacas that he seems to be unable to handle the pressure associated with the event. 

Yeah, let him use his experience to help coach or drive a cart around with a walkie talkie ... Just don't let him play. :)

[natureboy]

14 hours ago, iacas said:

Furyk is a bit of a choker.

 

13 hours ago, Big C said:

Add me to the list of those who would prefer to not see Furyk anywhere near a US Ryder Cup roster. I agree with @iacas that he seems to be unable to handle the pressure associated with the event. 

 

12 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

Yeah, let him use his experience to help coach or drive a cart around with a walkie talkie ... Just don't let him play. :)

Furyk getting tight under Ryder Cup pressure could well be true or at least partly true. That critique seems partly true of the U.S. squad in general, doesn't it? Bubba's record is comparably poor at 3-8-0. Considering his dominance and winning percentage in stroke play and beat the field average, Tiger's Ryder Cup record isn't too stellar either.

I'm just saying that Furyk (& Tiger too) may not have been used as smartly by the Captains as say, Luke Donald given his relative strengths and weaknesses.

Donald tended to be sat for fourball where Furyk played both formats about the same amount, and maybe not with the right complementary partners for the foursomes. When Donald's relative approach game and putting (& birdie/bogie ratio) ranking slipped in 2014 he wasn't picked for the Euro team, because it seems his relative potential contribution (producing birdies) in alternate shot / foursomes had diminished.

	Furyk - Strokes Gained				Donald - Strokes Gained
	SG-Tee	SG-Putt	SG-Appr	SG-ARG	SG-Tee	SG-Putt	SG-Appr	SG-ARG
2016	-0.294	0.195	0.458	0.285	-0.583	0.060	0.645	0.449
2015	0.064	-0.024	1.081	0.513	-0.793	0.289	0.573	0.514
2014	0.121	0.091	1.175	0.408	-0.493	0.517	0.315	0.351
2013	0.023	0.092	0.950	0.323	-0.459	0.528	0.583	0.628
2012	0.225	0.423	0.830	0.275	-0.188	0.818	0.582	0.430
2011	-0.017	-0.160	0.643	0.190	0.040	0.870	1.094	0.273
2010	0.150	0.402	0.641	0.367	-0.506	0.870	0.661	0.464
AVG	0.039	0.146	0.825	0.337	-0.426	0.565	0.636	0.444
10-'13	0.095	0.189	0.766	0.289	-0.278	0.772	0.730	0.449

 

	Furyk - Rank			Donald - Rank
	Bird/Bog	Bird+ %	Bog Avd	Bird/Bog	Bird+ %	Bog Avd
2016	121	165	69	82	181	16
2015	15	83	8	121	171	46
2014	5	97	1	93	108	93
2013	25	78	14	45	42	58
2012	9	145	1	13	66	7
2011	77	147	32	1	4	1
2010	21	76	21	16	109	9
AVG	39	113	21	53	97	33
10-'13	33	112	17	19	55	19

I expect Furyk's often been set up in a fourball pairing like Kuchar and Watson in '14 where the relatively short, but good putter / short game guy (Kuchar) was expected to complement the long hitter (Watson). Watson and Kuchar made many birdies, but still got smoked by two superior ball-strikers with average putting due to the better ball / fourball format. Rose's excellent short game helped that team in the alternate shot/foursomes format where their ball-striking was maybe less of an overt advantage than in better ball.Furyk's record is horrible in the better ball / fourball format. I think that may be due to his relative lack of distance where it's harder for him to contribute much and bogey avoidance (his strength) is less important than making birdies.

Edited August 24, 2016 by natureboy

[Scotsclaff]

Now this would be a shocker.We'll find out later today.

 

 

http://www.golfdigest.com/story/sources-clarke-leaning-toward-westwood-kaymer-and-donald-as-captains-picks