Multiple Infractions

[ColinL]

Obviously, I didn't want to use their real names, so instead of player A, B, and C, I just chose Able, Baker, Charlie.......I guess that makes me Delta.

I was just delighted at the quaintly archaic flavour of the old phonetic names!

[Fourputt]

Here is my take on this.  If in fact I was in this situation and didn't mind losing to someone playing fast with the rules, I may have taken the same path as the OP in the interest of minimizing any discomfort for the whole group.  However, at the end of play I would have taken him aside and told him that he had made numerous rules breaches during the round, and if he intended to continue playing competitions, he needed to get more familiar with the rules.  I would have enumerated his failures that day, and if he questioned any of them, I have my rule book (or rules app on my phone) handy to show them to him, and I'd make it plain that I was trying to keep peace by not pushing the issue that day, but that I would have to protect the field if it happened in the future.  Also that not everyone would be as easy about it as I was being.

He definitely needs to be counseled on his actions.  If he got huffy with me and didn't take it as friendly advice, then I would be forced to take the issue to the committee regardless of the bad feelings that might result.

I've been in similar circumstances a few times when playing a men's club competition with someone new to tournament golf, and if I observed them seeming to be a bit loose with a procedure during play, I would bring it up immediately.  I never had anyone take it the wrong way.  I think that this was in part because at the new member orientation each spring, they are informed that play is by the rules of golf (and each one is given a rule book and club hard card as part of their membership package), so there is no reason to be surprised when I mention it.  I usually get thanked for helping them out, partly because I also make a point of trying to step in proactively and prevent them from making a mistake, rather than sitting quietly by until they have passed the point of no return.

[turtleback]

Here is my take on this.  If in fact I was in this situation and didn't mind losing to someone playing fast with the rules, I may have taken the same path as the OP in the interest of minimizing any discomfort for the whole group.  However, at the end of play I would have taken him aside and told him that he had made numerous rules breaches during the round, and if he intended to continue playing competitions, he needed to get more familiar with the rules.  I would have enumerated his failures that day, and if he questioned any of them, I have my rule book (or rules app on my phone) handy to show them to him, and I'd make it plain that I was trying to keep peace by not pushing the issue that day, but that I would have to protect the field if it happened in the future.  Also that not everyone would be as easy about it as I was being.

He definitely needs to be counseled on his actions.  If he got huffy with me and didn't take it as friendly advice, then I would be forced to take the issue to the committee regardless of the bad feelings that might result.

I've been in similar circumstances a few times when playing a men's club competition with someone new to tournament golf, and if I observed them seeming to be a bit loose with a procedure during play, I would bring it up immediately.  I never had anyone take it the wrong way.  I think that this was in part because at the new member orientation each spring, they are informed that play is by the rules of golf (and each one is given a rule book and club hard card as part of their membership package), so there is no reason to be surprised when I mention it.  I usually get thanked for helping them out, partly because I also make a point of trying to step in proactively and prevent them from making a mistake, rather than sitting quietly by until they have passed the point of no return.

Great post, especially that last point.  It is a lot easier to convince someone that something is an infraction if you have been in time to help him NOT commit the infraction.

[Elmer]

I play with Mr Able, quite often, so I know the type.

I find that you can only tell someone once about the infractions they have made. Once they have this knowledge it is up to them to abide by the rules.

Some will correct their action, some will not.

But at very least you can protect the field from being robbed by someone who did not earn it.

[luu5]

Obviously, I didn't want to use their real names, so instead of player A, B, and C, I just chose Able, Baker, Charlie.......I guess that makes me Delta.

Nope, it would make you ... Dog...

[bigwave916]

I play with Mr Able, quite often, so I know the type. I find that you can only tell someone once about the infractions they have made. Once they have this knowledge it is up to them to abide by the rules. Some will correct their action, some will not. But at very least you can protect the field from being robbed by someone who did not earn it.

Yep, and now that I've had time to reflect, I'm thinking that it wasn't ignorance of the rules, he was just going to go as far as we would let him. Baker was ignorant, and Charles is one of those nice old goofy guys who doesn't have a care in the world and never has an opinion on any rulling. Also, I've already stated that had there been anyone other than our foursome in the flight, I wouldv'e protected the field. The only one close enough to beat the guy was myself, and like I said, there were only the 4 of us in the flight. If I had it to do over I would have called him on the first one, but at the time I didn't anticipate a second and a third. I've taken some time with the rule book and I've come up with potential number of strokes in penalties. 1. Indicating line of play (8-2-a.) = 2 strokes 2. Lifting ball from hazard and dropping the ball more than 2 club lengths from the spot at which the ball crossed the boundary of the hazard. (26 -1) - 2 strokes 3. Asking for advice. What club did you hit. (8-1-b) = 2 strokes 4. Wrong Ball (15-3-b) = 2 storkes 5.The fifth incident is a bit more complicated. Able hit the ball into a hazard. Put down another ball a played from the tee without notifying his marker or anyone else for that matter that he was hitting provisional. The rule on provisionals would seem to say that the ball he hit last is now his ball in play laying 3. However, it was not legal to play the provisional since his ball was in the hazard from which he should have taken no more than 2 club lengths from the last point at which the ball crossed the hazard boundary. Instead, he played the ball that was laying 3. I;m not sure but seems like this is 4 strokes in penalties. That's 12 total strokes of which we only counted 2 (wrong ball) If I ever play with him again, I am going to point out to him that I can't just let this stuff go and if he has any doubt about a ruling speak up and we can address it hopefully before there is any breach of the rules of golf whether or not I think I have a chance to beat him or not.

[Club Rat]

If I ever play with him again, I am going to point out to him that I can't just let this stuff go

Or anyone.

Hopefully you now understand the importance and manner to address any situations which may occur.

Golf is just a game, and there are many people who either do not care about rules, or lack knowledge of the proper rule and the various options to apply.

I wouldn't carry a chip on your shoulder, but definitely speak up when a situation occurs.

Many times, I have made a simple comment which leads to guys discussing and learning different principles of rules.

Club Rat

[rkim291968]

@bigwave916 , I am relatively new to tournament scene and ask questions during tournament rounds when in doubt.   Others who sense that I am new have given me "tips" on what not to do during tournament rounds.   Those tips (or friendly warnings for some cases) are much appreciated.    I think you should try letting them know during play.   Properly delivered "tips" should do the trick.

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

Yep, and now that I've had time to reflect, I'm thinking that it wasn't ignorance of the rules, he was just going to go as far as we would let him. Baker was ignorant, and Charles is one of those nice old goofy guys who doesn't have a care in the world and never has an opinion on any rulling. Also, I've already stated that had there been anyone other than our foursome in the flight, I wouldv'e protected the field.

The only one close enough to beat the guy was myself, and like I said, there were only the 4 of us in the flight. If I had it to do over I would have called him on the first one, but at the time I didn't anticipate a second and a third. I've taken some time with the rule book and I've come up with potential number of strokes in penalties.

1. Indicating line of play (8-2-a.) = 2 strokes

2. Lifting ball from hazard and dropping the ball more than 2 club lengths from the spot at which the ball crossed the boundary of the hazard. (26 -1) - 2 strokes

3. Asking for advice. What club did you hit. (8-1-b) = 2 strokes

4. Wrong Ball (15-3-b) = 2 storkes

5.The fifth incident is a bit more complicated. Able hit the ball into a hazard. Put down another ball a played from the tee without notifying his marker or anyone else for that matter that he was hitting provisional. The rule on provisionals would seem to say that the ball he hit last is now his ball in play laying 3. However, it was not legal to play the provisional since his ball was in the hazard from which he should have taken no more than 2 club lengths from the last point at which the ball crossed the hazard boundary. Instead, he played the ball that was laying 3. I;m not sure but seems like this is 4 strokes in penalties.

That's 12 total strokes of which we only counted 2 (wrong ball)

If I ever play with him again, I am going to point out to him that I can't just let this stuff go and if he has any doubt about a ruling speak up and we can address it hopefully before there is any breach of the rules of golf whether or not I think I have a chance to beat him or not.

To the part in BOLD, there is no penalty here at all.  If he hit a shot into the hazard, he has the option to put down another ball and hit again from the same spot.  That ball is now in play and he is lying 3 on the tee.  There is no provisional here in this case....he is just taking his penalty via stroke and distance, and hitting.  As long as you continued to play that 2nd ball and correctly counted the score...there is no penalty for how he proceeded.

[bigwave916]

Or anyone. Hopefully you now understand the importance and manner to address any situations which may occur. Golf is just a game, and there are many people who either do not care about rules, or lack knowledge of the proper rule and the various options to apply. I wouldn't carry a chip on your shoulder, but definitely speak up when a situation occurs. Many times, I have made a simple comment which leads to guys discussing and learning different principles of rules. Club Rat

[quote name="rkim291968" url="/t/83478/multiple-infractions/18#post_1176637"] @bigwave916 , I am relatively new to tournament scene and ask questions during tournament rounds when in doubt.   Others who sense that I am new have given me "tips" on what not to do during tournament rounds.   Those tips (or friendly warnings for some cases) are much appreciated.    I think you should try letting them know during play.   Properly delivered "tips" should do the trick.   [/quote] Guys, thanks for the feedback and the advice but I pointed out 3 of the infractions as polite and kind as I could. I even mentioned to the offender that "a lot of guys would call you on it" I was shocked when I checked his record to see how many tournaments he'd played in. He should've known better and probably did. I've been playing in tournaments off and on for a long time (30+ years) and never experienced anything like this. I'm not angry about it, and I've already stated that I would have insisted he take the penalties had there been anyone else in the field to protect.

[bigwave916]

To the part in BOLD, there is no penalty here at all.  If he hit a shot into the hazard, he has the option to put down another ball and hit again from the same spot.  That ball is now in play and he is lying 3 on the tee.  There is no provisional here in this case....he is just taking his penalty via stroke and distance, and hitting.  As long as you continued to play that 2nd ball and correctly counted the score...there is no penalty for how he proceeded.

You are correct of course, but I believe you have to notify the marker or competitor, you cant just hit one and decide what to do when you find them both.

[rkim291968]

Guys, thanks for the feedback and the advice but I pointed out 3 of the infractions as polite and kind as I could. I even mentioned to the offender that "a lot of guys would call you on it" I was shocked when I checked his record to see how many tournaments he'd played in. He should've known better and probably did. I've been playing in tournaments off and on for a long time (30+ years) and never experienced anything like this. I'm not angry about it, and I've already stated that I would have insisted he take the penalties had there been anyone else in the field to protect.

In that case, a disqualification or two may be in order  before his behavior changes ....

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

You are correct of course, but I believe you have to notify the marker or competitor, you cant just hit one and decide what to do when you find them both.

Nope, you don't have to notify anyone.  But if you put a 2nd ball in play from the tee, that's now your ball in play.  Even if you find the first one in the hazard (or outside of the hazard), it won't matter, as you have already chosen to take your Stroke and Distance penalty and are hitting 3 from the tee.

There is no deciding what to do if you find them both.  The rules don't allow for that.  If you put a 2nd ball in play off the tee, that's the one you are playing.

If you need to hit a provisional, you need to state you are hitting a provisional, and yes, you are correct, there is no option to hit a provisional if your ball is in a hazard.

[oudrees]

If he ignored the rules that much, I wonder how many times he grounded his club in hazards or moved illegal branches and stuff like that.  I just started playing with a group that is strict on the rules (money involved) and there are so many that I had no idea about when I was playing with friends that I broke.  These guys definitely catch me and teach me on my infractions.  I know, before playing with these guys, I really never knew the difference between white stakes and red......those white stakes can sure add up a golf score

[turtleback]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyrtleBeachGolf

To the part in BOLD, there is no penalty here at all.  If he hit a shot into the hazard, he has the option to put down another ball and hit again from the same spot.  That ball is now in play and he is lying 3 on the tee.  There is no provisional here in this case....he is just taking his penalty via stroke and distance, and hitting.  As long as you continued to play that 2nd ball and correctly counted the score...there is no penalty for how he proceeded.

You are correct of course, but I believe you have to notify the marker or competitor, you cant just hit one and decide what to do when you find them both.

No, you only have to notify anyone if you are playing a provisional.  If you re-tee without declaring a provisional then this new ball is in play and your re-tee is your third shot.  Where or whatever happened to that first ball is completely irrelevant.  Rule 27-2.

[bigwave916]

No, you only have to notify anyone if you are playing a provisional.  If you re-tee without declaring a provisional then this new ball is in play and your re-tee is your third shot.  Where or whatever happened to that first ball is completely irrelevant.  Rule 27-2.

Look, with all due respect, what I said was true and your own statement supports what I said. "you have to notify the marker or competitor, you cant just hit one and decide what to do when you find them both." As you pointed out If you re-tee without declaring a provisional then this new ball is in play and your re-tee is your third shot. Exactly, you can't just choose when you find them both. You've already "chosen" by hitting a second ball with which you are now laying 3, becuase you didn't notify your marker or competitor that you were hitting a provisional ball.

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

But just so you know, there is never a situation in the rules of golf where you are able to "find both" and then decide what to do. You can only hit a provisional if you believe your ball is out of bounds, or if you believe it's lost (outside of a hazard). If you hit a provisional, and then you find your original ball in bounds, the provisional ball is immediately null and void. You don't get to "decide" which to play at any point. If your tee shot goes into a hazard, and you re-tee and hit a 2nd ball, that ball is now your ball in play and you are hitting 3 from the tee. There is no need to inform your marker or competitor of anything. The only time you need to inform them is IF you are hitting a provisional.

[MEfree]

Look, with all due respect, what I said was true and your own statement supports what I said. "you have to notify the marker or competitor, you cant just hit one and decide what to do when you find them both." As you pointed out If you re-tee without declaring a provisional then this new ball is in play and your re-tee is your third shot. Exactly, you can't just choose when you find them both. You've already "chosen" by hitting a second ball with which you are now laying 3, becuase you didn't notify your marker or competitor that you were hitting a provisional ball.

I think the point MGB was making is that there was no penalty for picking up his original and playing his second ball lying 3. Had he tried to play the 1st ball when he found it (after making no provisional announcement), then he would have committed an infraction. I get your point that he may have inferred that he was playing a provisional, but this only becomes a rules violation if he then picks up the non-announced "provisional" In short, there is not a rules violation for what goes on in your mind, just what you actually do. In this case, he played the right ball even if he considered playing the wrong one.