Lost Ball Rule is Stupid

[krupa]

I have NEVER played a round of golf, non tournament, where another golfer couldn't find a ball and walked back to the tee. It just doesn't make sense to do that on a public course.

Why not amend the rule to say assume the best possible locale and take a stroke penalty. Only for non tournament play of course.

Hitting provisionals all the time doesn't help pace of play either. You have to search for the first ball. Either find it and play it. Then go search for that provisional. Or spend 5 minutes. Give up and then go find your provisional.

Just saying their should be an allowed legal way to address the lost ball rule besides stroke and distance. It just doesn't make sense for the average golfer.

There is.  You can drop a ball and play it from wherever you are.  However, because it's not the correct ball, you have to take at least a 2 stroke penalty... maybe 3.  There was another thread about this but I can't find it after a quick search.

When I think I won't find my ball, I just play a provisional and make sure I can find it by using a different club or not swinging as hard.  Or, if I don't play a provisional and can't find my ball, I drop a new one, and give myself 2 strokes and accept that I'm not playing by all the rules, which is fine because I don't have an official handicap anyway.

[pumaAttack]

You all are missing the point. Of course if it's obvious it's lost or may be lost I will hit a provisional. I am talking about when you hit one down the fairway. It rolls off slightly and under some leaves. You seriously think it's better and just as fast to walk back to the tee and hit again? Hit a provisional for a shot down the middle?! Your partners will love that... You guys need to think outside the box and stop being so black and white. "If it's lost I hit a provisional." Well duh. Open up your minds to other situations that affect the game currently.

[David in FL]

You all are missing the point. Of course if it's obvious it's lost or may be lost I will hit a provisional. I am talking about when you hit one down the fairway. It rolls off slightly and under some leaves. You seriously think it's better and just as fast to walk back to the tee and hit again? Hit a provisional for a shot down the middle?! Your partners will love that... You guys need to think outside the box and stop being so black and white. "If it's lost I hit a provisional." Well duh. Open up your minds to other situations that affect the game currently.

Are you even reading the responses to your posts? You've been told many times to just go ahead, drop, or do whatever you like when playing with your buddies. It's also been explained many times why that does not work as an actual rule that would have to apply for any lost ball, not just in one unique circumstance.

[pumaAttack]

Are you even reading the responses to your posts? You've been told many times to just go ahead, drop, or do whatever you like when playing with your buddies. It's also been explained many times why that does not work as an actual rule that would have to apply for any lost ball, not just in one unique circumstance.

No kidding I can drop and play as I like with friends. I can also right down a 4 instead of a 6. I can foot wedge my ball inbounds. That is not the point. The point is that there needs to be a middle ground that is within the rules. I try to play as strictly to the rules when I play. I always follow OB, never take a gimme putt, never ground my club or move impediments. I just think it's way out of touch for the only legal option to be stroke and distance for all lost balls. I am fine taking the one stroke penalty and chalk it up to bad luck. I don't think it's right and practical to walk back to the tee for every lost ball.

[dkolo]

No kidding I can drop and play as I like with friends. I can also right down a 4 instead of a 6. I can foot wedge my ball inbounds. That is not the point. The point is that there needs to be a middle ground that is within the rules. I try to play as strictly to the rules when I play. I always follow OB, never take a gimme putt, never ground my club or move impediments. I just think it's way out of touch for the only legal option to be stroke and distance for all lost balls. I am fine taking the one stroke penalty and chalk it up to bad luck. I don't think it's right and practical to walk back to the tee for every lost ball.

Write a draft of a formal rule that you think will work and we'll all work through it to see if it will cover all situations as equitably and completely as the existing rule.

[David in FL]

Write a draft of a formal rule that you think will work and we'll all work through it to see if it will cover all situations as equitably and completely as the existing rule.

^^^^ This ^^^^ I also continue to recommend Tufts' book. It gives insight to the fundamental principles of the game, that the actual rules must follow. Here's an older thread that might give a little further insight. [CONTENTEMBED=/t/70205/the-principles-behind-the-rules-of-golf-by-richard-s-tufts layout=block][/CONTENTEMBED]

[pumaAttack]

Not sure why taking a drop at the "most likely" locale and a one stroke penalty is not feasible. If it's match play then both players agree it was roughly in that spot. Clearly inbounds and decide a fair spot. If it's stroke play all playing partners do the same thing. If that rule is applied to everyone and all members of the group agree that the ball is not OB, not in a lake, not in the woods but rather covered by loose impediments that seems like a fair ruling to me. You are getting penalized for bad luck and still hitting three instead of two.

[dkolo]

Not sure why taking a drop at the "most likely" locale and a one stroke penalty is not feasible.

If it's match play then both players agree it was roughly in that spot. Clearly inbounds and decide a fair spot. If it's stroke play all playing partners do the same thing.

If that rule is applied to everyone and all members of the group agree that the ball is not OB, not in a lake, not in the woods but rather covered by loose impediments that seems like a fair ruling to me.

You are getting penalized for bad luck and still hitting three instead of two.

It's not feasible. Playing partners will disagree. Driving distance will be overestimated / estimated differently by opponents. Direction of ricochets will be assumed differently. These are things your kernel of a rule doesn't address at all.

You bring up this leaf / loose impediments stuff. There's a local rule that can be enacted temporarily (the "leaf rule") to cover leaves. If you're talking stuff like branches and downed trees or something, I don't know what to tell you. If it's in stuff like that, there's a decent chance you'd have to take an unplayable anyway because you couldn't remove the branches without moving the ball, so now you're getting getting drops that are better than what you'd have to take as an unplayable. And again, you still don't know where your ball is so you're making guesses that are probably favorable to you.

You brought up the losing a drive in the sun situation earlier. That means you never see it come down and probably lose it at or before its apex. So you don't know if the drive was straight or if it started slicing hard once it was losing its forward momentum. You don't see if it bounced weirdly off of a bottle cap someone left in the fairway. You're guessing where the ball should be. That's why this solution isn't feasible.

Try again.

[turtleback]

This is one rule that is outdated. Yes that is my opinion. When Matt Jones hit a ball down by the water in massive rough and there were 20 people looking for it for 5 minutes and then the film had to be studied to finally find it, that is plain not fair to golfers that don't even have a spotter.

Fair to whom?  Do your opponents have people helping them find their balls?  I am having a hard time understanding why something happening on some other course in some other competition affects the fairness of YOUR round.  Your round is fair because you are playing under similar circumstances as the people you are playing with/against.  Matt Jones is treated fairly as he is playing under similar circumstances as the people he is playing with/against.

There is so much "it's s gentleman's game" and "we are our own policemen" type of honor codes in golf that you could make a rule where if the ball is in the woods or in bushes or any possibility of being OB it would be on you to admit it and hit 3 off the tee whereas if you saw your ball go into the rough or taller grass with no OB near the area you could drop at the furthest distance in the worst possible place or something stupid like that. There are a lot of smart people working in the administration of the rules, I'm sure they could come up with something penal but not as penal as stroke and distance.

But a lost ball SHOULD BE stroke and distance.  THAT is really what folks do not like, as evidenced by the fact that most of the people steal a stroke, when they drop, from where they would be had they hit and found their provisional exactly where they dropped.  If the drop is just supposed to take the place of the provisional or re-hitting, then w hy does it then additionally become the occasion for stealing a stroke?

I am "virtually certain" where it lies but can't find it. How is that different than "virtually certain" an outside agent took my ball? One says free drop and the other says stroke and distance.

I play 14 holes and have to quit due to darkness. I assume my score for the remaining holes to fill in my round. Not just where my ball is but LITERALLY every shot for the remaining holes is a total guess. That is ok but by assuming where my ball is based off visual and course data is not ok?

You do not understand the difference between your score and your posting score.

You guys must all be a hoot to play with.

Do you spend 5 minutes lining up your putts too?

Do you ever address an issue?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkolo

No we don't and don't be rude.

Odd. I find it far more rude to make everybody else around me wait as I walk back to the tee to hit another shot. I would say it's much more considerate to either take a free drop or one stroke penalty drop at an agreed upon locale.

If you are trying to use the drop as a substitute for following the rules, why are you stealing a stroke every time?  If you really wanted an analog to following the rule you would drop and add 2 strokes and be hitting your FOURTH stroke.  It is funny how the people who want to ignore the rules because they are not "fair" always seem to end up writing down a smaller number than the rules would have given.  We like the good breaks (you are not throwing your ball into the woods if your tee shot hits a branch and bounces into the fairway), but the bad breaks are UNFAIR!!

Not sure why taking a drop at the "most likely" locale and a one stroke penalty is not feasible.

If it's match play then both players agree it was roughly in that spot. Clearly inbounds and decide a fair spot. If it's stroke play all playing partners do the same thing.

If that rule is applied to everyone and all members of the group agree that the ball is not OB, not in a lake, not in the woods but rather covered by loose impediments that seems like a fair ruling to me.

You are getting penalized for bad luck and still hitting three instead of two.

OK, we will insure you against bad luck so long as you promise to undo every benefit you ever get from a piece of good luck.

Luck is part of the game.

[Jon Hoover]

It's not feasible. Playing partners will disagree. Driving distance will be overestimated / estimated differently by opponents. Direction of ricochets will be assumed differently. These are things your kernel of a rule doesn't address at all.

You bring up this leaf / loose impediments stuff. There's a local rule that can be enacted temporarily (the "leaf rule") to cover leaves. If you're talking stuff like branches and downed trees or something, I don't know what to tell you. If it's in stuff like that, there's a decent chance you'd have to take an unplayable anyway because you couldn't remove the branches without moving the ball, so now you're getting getting drops that are better than what you'd have to take as an unplayable. And again, you still don't know where your ball is so you're making guesses that are probably favorable to you.

You brought up the losing a drive in the sun situation earlier. That means you never see it come down and probably lose it at or before its apex. So you don't know if the drive was straight or if it started slicing hard once it was losing its forward momentum. You don't see if it bounced weirdly off of a bottle cap someone left in the fairway. You're guessing where the ball should be. That's why this solution isn't feasible.

Try again.

These types of things can happen all the time with lateral hazards you can't tell with 100% certainty where the ball went out or what your exact line was, but most of the time everyone acts like gentlemen and comes to an arrangement without brawls on the course, so why would the lost ball be any different...

Oh and if your moving loose impediments and your ball moves there is not a penalty associated with it 23-1: If the ball lies anywhere other than on the putting green and the removal of a loose impediment by the player causes the ball to move , Rule 18-2a applies, 18-2a: If the ball is moved , it must be replaced, unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of the club for the stroke and the stroke is made.

[saevel25]

Why not amend the rule to say assume the best possible locale and take a stroke penalty. Only for non tournament play of course.

Hitting provisionals all the time doesn't help pace of play either. You have to search for the first ball. Either find it and play it. Then go search for that provisional. Or spend 5 minutes. Give up and then go find your provisional.

Just saying their should be an allowed legal way to address the lost ball rule besides stroke and distance. It just doesn't make sense for the average golfer.

Because Rules are meant for both us and PGA Tour players. Doing so would be stupid and invalidate all those who have played professional golf previously. There should not and I hope never be two sets of rules.

There is no legal way. It should not be allowed under the rules of golf. Again that isn't stopping you from doing it. Just know if you claim to be playing by the rules of golf then you are admitting you are cheating. It's called being honest with yourself in how you play the game.

You all are missing the point. Of course if it's obvious it's lost or may be lost I will hit a provisional.

I am talking about when you hit one down the fairway. It rolls off slightly and under some leaves.

You seriously think it's better and just as fast to walk back to the tee and hit again? Hit a provisional for a shot down the middle?! Your partners will love that...

Then don't play golf in the fall time. I've never had the leaf issue playing golf. Still you are talking about such a random and very small occurrence that it doesn't warrant any consideration. I can count on two hands the number of times I didn't find a ball that I knew was in play. I've been playing golf for over 15 years. It doesn't happen that often to worry about it.

If your partners play by the rules of golf then they would understand. If you are playing golf with guys who play golf by not taking stroke and distance than drop a ball and play on.

Not sure why taking a drop at the "most likely" locale and a one stroke penalty is not feasible.

Because if you drop where you lost the ball and take a one stroke penalty you are gaining a stroke compared to going back and rehitting. The distance you walked is nearly equivalent to a full stroke.

Hit a ball OB, Penalty, hit another ball. You are hitting 4 from the next shot.

Hit a ball near OB, drop a ball with penalty. You are hitting 3 from this location.

You are not taking into consideration the distance aspect is basically a 1 stroke penalty. No you should change the rule to say, drop and take a 2 stroke penalty. Again you don't not know where the ball would have been at. You can claim you think you do, but there is no virtual certainty. In the end you would need to know with in 2 club lengths where the ball would have been. If you can't find a ball in that 2 club length circle then you can't assume with a virtual certainty it would be there. All drops are typically 2 club lengths, not with in a 10 yard area of which you think it might be at or should be at. This is why you need to go back to the tee box an rehit, if you are going to play by the rules of golf.

If it's match play then both players agree it was roughly in that spot. Clearly inbounds and decide a fair spot. If it's stroke play all playing partners do the same thing.

If that rule is applied to everyone and all members of the group agree that the ball is not OB, not in a lake, not in the woods but rather covered by loose impediments that seems like a fair ruling to me.

You are getting penalized for bad luck and still hitting three instead of two.

That is fine. If you as a group want to play by a set of rules. That is not what is being discussed. You want to actually change the golf rules as a whole. That is not fine and should not be done in this situation. Again, no one is stopping you from playing by what ever rules you want because you are making up your own competition.

[mdl]

Just pointing out that even the reasonable public course, causal round hack of dropping near where you think your ball ended and hitting 4 from there to simulate a provisional could still be argued to be taking some extra portion of a stroke, more so the worse a golfer you are.  If you're not very good, there's a good chance you could have hit your provisional OB or into a hazard or simply in a worse spot than you think your lost shot ended near.

Of course, to determine the true amount of strokes you're gaining/losing by just dropping and taking a 2 stroke penalty you have to consider the chances that your provisional would have ended in a much better spot than your drop, leading to a lower average score.  But I'd bet that most players are gaining strokes versus going back and re-teeing by dropping and taking a 2 stroke penalty, never mind dropping and taking a 1 stroke penalty!

Note that I do this too in casual rounds.  I was convinced on this site a while ago to dramatically up the proportion of time I take a provisional to avoid this situation as much as possible, but when I unexpectedly lose a ball in a casual round, there's a 0% chance I'm walking back to the tee and holding up my group and those behind me, so I'm just gonna drop near where I think my ball ended up and take a 2 stroke penalty, true difference in average hole score versus re-teeing be damned.

[dkolo]

These types of things can happen all the time with lateral hazards you can't tell with 100% certainty where the ball went out or what your exact line was, but most of the time everyone acts like gentlemen and comes to an arrangement without brawls on the course, so why would the lost ball be any different...

Oh and if your moving loose impediments and your ball moves there is not a penalty associated with it 23-1: If the ball lies anywhere other than on the putting green and the removal of aloose impediment by the player causes the ball to move, Rule 18-2a applies, 18-2a: If the ball is moved, it must be replaced, unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of the club for the stroke and the stroke is made.

You missed the line in 18-2(a) directly above what you quoted (red emphasis is the USGA's)

18-2. By Player, Partner, Caddie Or Equipment

a. General

Except as permitted by the Rules, when a player’s ball is in play, if

(i) the player, his partner or either of their caddies:

• lifts or moves the ball,

• touches it purposely (except with a club in the act of addressing the ball), or

• causes the ball to move, or

(ii) the equipment of the player or his partner causes the ball to move,

the player incurs a penalty of one stroke.

If the ball is moved, it must be replaced, unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of the club for the stroke and the stroke is made.

Under the Rules there is no penalty if a player accidentally causes his ball tomove in the following circumstances:

In searching for a ball covered by sand, in the replacement ofLoose Impediments moved in a Hazard while finding or identifying a ball, in probing for a ball lying in water in a Water Hazard or in searching for a ball in an Obstruction or anAbnormal Ground Condition – Rule 12-1

In repairing a Hole plug or ball mark – Rule 16-1c

In measuring – Rule 18-6

In lifting a ball under a Rule – Rule 20-1

In placing or replacing a ball under a Rule – Rule 20-3a

In removing a Loose Impediment on the Putting Green – Rule23-1

In removing movable Obstructions – Rule 24-1

[Jon Hoover]

Then don't play golf in the fall time. I've never had the leaf issue playing golf. Still you are talking about such a random and very small occurrence that it doesn't warrant any consideration. I can count on two hands the number of times I didn't find a ball that I knew was in play. I've been playing golf for over 15 years. It doesn't happen that often to worry about it.

I play in Florida where there is no "Fall" but anytime of the year your likely to find hundreds of thousands of leaves on any given golf course, and if you play in the evening when they simmer it can be nearly impossible to find a ball resting in them, the number of times this has happened to me, and or fellow players is many more then I could count, plus having to go back and re tee isn't always a viable option.

Because Rules are meant for both us and PGA Tour players. Doing so would be stupid and invalidate all those who have played professional golf previously. There should not and I hope never be two sets of rules.

Ok how many times have you ever seen this happen on the tour, I maybe saw it once. The difference between playing on the weekends and on tour is that their are hundreds of people watching the ball on tour as opposed to you and your playing partners... Pros almost never loose balls as a result.

[Jon Hoover]

ya the penalty occurs if the player lifts or moves the ball directly with their hands or equipment, the penalty only occurs if they do whats above it... If a palm frond covers your ball and you pick it up to move it and the ball moves you must replace it and you don't occur a penalty.

[saevel25]

I play in Florida where there is no "Fall" but anytime of the year your likely to find hundreds of thousands of leaves on any given golf course, and if you play in the evening when they simmer it can be nearly impossible to find a ball resting in them, the number of times this has happened to me, and or fellow players is many more then I could count, plus having to go back and re tee isn't always a viable option.

Ok how many times have you ever seen this happen on the tour, I maybe saw it once. The difference between playing on the weekends and on tour is that their are hundreds of people watching the ball on tour as opposed to you and your playing partners... Pros almost never loose balls as a result.

I was down in Florida in spring and there wasn't any leaves on the ground.

Phil hit his ball left into some crap. Then hit a provisional and told the spectator not to find his ball because his 2nd was in a good position. The guy found his ball and forced Phil to go back to the tee box to rehit because his first ball was now in play and it was in an unplayable position. I believe his rehit was worse shot than his provisional. I think he ended up losing in a playoff over this one.

Again, PGA Tour players hit the ball much better than we do. Given PGA Tour players might not aim for the center of the fairway 100% of the time. Still they average 25 FT from the center of the fairway. They are very very accurate.

I will say this, if PGA Tour players played courses with the height of the rough we typically play on they wouldn't need spotters for them. Spotters just allow the courses to grow the rough up to challenge the players. Look at Augusta, you can always find the golf ball there because the rough is typically cut lower there.

situations claimed above are very rare.

[Jon Hoover]

I was down in Florida in spring and there wasn't any leaves on the ground.

LOL ok when I'm out tonight in my weekly league I'll take some pictures of leaves on the ground.

[saevel25]

LOL ok when I'm out tonight in my weekly league I'll take some pictures of leaves on the ground.

You are the one that said "anytime" during the year. I said I was down in the spring. It's now the middle of summer. Just saying, you might want to be correct and specific with your claims.