Provisional-2nd provisional and found ball question

[Elmer]

Playing in a league match last night.

My opponent

Tee’s up the ball on a par 4 and hits it near 10 yards and  into the woods on the right.

Since it is a thick patch of trees there is no chance of playing it out there.

Tee’s up a Provisional  and hits it in the same spot into the woods on the right.

Tee’s up a 2 ^nd Provisional  and duffs the drive to the same spot. Except this stop short of the woods and is playable.

We walk 10 yards up and he plays his next shot  up the fairway.

As we begin walking up the fairway I look to my left and just past the ladies/senior tees is a ball.

I inform my opponent of a ball, he does not care continues walking. I inspect further it is his original ball.

He then comes back and plays it. Now he is lying 1 hitting 2 instead of lying 7 after 2 lost balls.

He ends up bogie on the hole and we push.

I think we played it correctly but could always be wrong.

What do the rules say about finding your original tee shot after putting a provisional into play, before you find out the golf G*ds have been kind to you?

[newtogolf]

Playing in a league match last night.

My opponent

Tee’s up the ball on a par 4 and hits it near 10 yards and  into the woods on the right.

Since it is a thick patch of trees there is no chance of playing it out there.

Tee’s up a Provisional  and hits it in the same spot into the woods on the right.

Tee’s up a 2nd Provisional  and duffs the drive to the same spot. Except this stop short of the woods and is playable.

We walk 10 yards up and he plays his next shot  up the fairway.

As we begin walking up the fairway I look to my left and just past the ladies/senior tees is a ball.

I inform my opponent of a ball, he does not care continues walking. I inspect further it is his original ball.

He then comes back and plays it. Now he is lying 1 hitting 2 instead of lying 7 after 2 lost balls.

He ends up bogie on the hole and we push.

I think we played it correctly but could always be wrong.

What do the rules say about finding your original tee shot after putting a provisional into play, before you find out the golf G*ds have been kind to you?

I'm pretty sure If he played the provisional ball, the provisional is in play and he's now lying 8, you win the hole.

[Grinde6]

By my understanding of the rules of golf, since he played is second shot with the provisional ball without looking where his original ball was, he is now stuck playing his provisional ball and is hitting 7.  Had he looked for his original ball first and found it, he could pick up the provisional ball and be hitting 2, but since he did not and hit his provisional ball down the fairway that is now his ball that is in play...you should have won the hole.

[Elmer]

By my understanding of the rules of golf, since he played is second shot with the provisional ball without looking where his original ball was, he is now stuck playing his provisional ball and is hitting 7.  Had he looked for his original ball first and found it, he could pick up the provisional ball and be hitting 2, but since he did not and hit his provisional ball down the fairway that is now his ball that is in play...you should have won the hole.

The only problem I have with this is that had he looked for his ball in the woods to the right he would not have found it, since it kicked out and ended up to our left.

Neither of us would have ever thought to look for the ball on the left.

So even if he had looked for the ball he would not have found it and until we began walking up the fairway.

So am I to understand that the rule is that even if you find your ball that you did not know kicked out of the woods after you played your provisional you are stuck with the provisional?

[Grinde6]

Yes, unfortunately that is correct...once he made a stroke on the provisional he is stuck with it. That's why time is allotted to finding a lost ball, so it can be looked for somewhat extensively. Always with trees I will look 30-40 yards behind and 30-40 yards ahead, because if a ball ricochets off a tree it can go anywhere.

[wadesworld]

You're both incorrect, at least in what determines whether a provisional ball is in-play.

After hitting a provisional, you may make as many strokes at it as you wish until you reach spot at, or nearer the hole than where your original ball is likely to be.  If you make a stroke at a provisional from that spot or nearer the hole, then the provisional becomes the ball in-play.

It's not clear from the original post whether the provisionals were past the "10 yards" or not.  If he made a stroke at a provisional before reaching the spot where the original was likely to be, the strokes do not count and once the original is found, both provisionals are immediately abandoned and he's hitting his second shot with the original.  However, if he had made a stroke at a provisional from beyond where the original was likely to be, then the provisional immediately becomes the ball in play and the original is abandoned.

[wadesworld]

Yes, unfortunately that is correct...once he made a stroke on the provisional he is stuck with it. That's why time is allotted to finding a lost ball, so it can be looked for somewhat extensively. Always with trees I will look 30-40 yards behind and 30-40 yards ahead, because if a ball ricochets off a tree it can go anywhere.

No, that's NOT correct.  It is only correct if the stroke was made at the provisional from where the original was likely to be, or nearer the hole.

[David in FL]

[COLOR=FF00AA][/COLOR]I need a little clarification... He hit his drive 10 yards ? I'm not understanding the distances here, and it's important, because you have the right to continue to play a provisional up to the point where the original ball is thought to be.... b. When Provisional Ball Becomes Ball in Play The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be. If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place, the original ball is lost and the provisional ball becomes the ball in playunder penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1). Edited to add that @wadesworld beat me to it....but the answer to the specific situation in the OP still lies in understanding the actual relationships between the balls.

[saevel25]

Some information on provisional shots,

b. When Provisional Ball Becomes Ball in Play

The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be. If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place, the original ball is lost and the provisional ball becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

Also you can play any number of provisional shots and still play the first ball if you find it.

27-2a/4

Three Balls Played from Same Spot; Only Second Ball Was Provisional Ball

Q.A player, believing his tee shot might be lost or out of bounds, plays a provisional ball. His provisional ball is struck in the same direction as the original ball and, without any announcement, he plays another ball from the tee. This ball comes to rest on the fairway. What is the ruling?

A.If the original ball is not lost or out of bounds, the player must continue play with that ball without penalty.

If the original ball is lost or out of bounds, the player must continue play with the third ball played from the tee as, when this ball was played without any announcement, it rendered the provisional ball lost, regardless of the provisional ball's location. The player would lie 5 with the third ball played from the tee.

In both situations, the third ball bears a relationship only to the previous ball played, i.e., the provisional ball.

Also under 27-2 (a),

Note: If a provisional ball played under Rule 27-2a might be lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds, the player may play another provisional ball. If another provisional ball is played, it bears the same relationship to the previous provisional ball as the first provisional ball bears to the original ball.

I might need a 2nd opinion on this one. I believe if you hit a third provisional, and if you don't find the first ball, but find the 2nd provisional you can play that one. I am not sure if teeing up a third provisional abandons the second one.

[Grinde6]

Yes, I was reading into it as all 3 balls went to the same spot, except this one was outside the woods...so I was seeing it as his 2nd provisional ball was where his first two were likely to be.

[Grinde6]

Some information on provisional shots,

Also you can play any number of provisional shots and still play the first ball if you find it.

Also under 27-2 (a),

I might need a 2nd opinion on this one. I believe if you hit a third provisional, and if you don't find the first ball, but find the 2nd provisional you can play that one. I am not sure if teeing up a third provisional abandons the second one.

Teeing up the 3rd would only abandon the 2nd and 1st if both of those weren't found...the ball isn't abandoned unless it isn't found.  But all of the balls have to be distinctly marked or numbered differently to differentiate them from eachother.

[Elmer]

You're both incorrect, at least in what determines whether a provisional ball is in-play.

After hitting a provisional, you may make as many strokes at it as you wish until you reach spot at, or nearer the hole than where your original ball is likely to be.  If you make a stroke at a provisional from that spot or nearer the hole, then the provisional becomes the ball in-play.

It's not clear from the original post whether the provisionals were past the "10 yards" or not.  If he made a stroke at a provisional before reaching the spot where the original was likely to be, the strokes do not count and once the original is found, both provisionals are immediately abandoned and he's hitting his second shot with the original.  However, if he had made a stroke at a provisional from beyond where the original was likely to be, then the provisional immediately becomes the ball in play and the original is abandoned.

The provisionals all were in the same spot either in the woods or playable on the fringe.

this was 10-15 yards forward and to the right.

none of these shots were further to the hole than where his original landed.

I need a little clarification...

He hit his drive 10 yards? I'm not understanding the distances here, and it's important, because you have the right to continue to play a provisional up to the point where the original ball is thought to be....

b. When Provisional Ball Becomes Ball in Play

The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be. If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place, the original ball is lost and the provisional ball becomes the ball in playunder penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

Edited to add that @wadesworld beat me to it....but the answer to the specific situation in the OP still lies in understanding the actual relationships between the balls.

yes he hit his ball 10-15 yards forward and to the right.

He hit his 2nd provisional. We began walking forward and 10 yards ahead we found his original.

[newtogolf]

Yes, I was reading into it as all 3 balls went to the same spot, except this one was outside the woods...so I was seeing it as his 2nd provisional ball was where his first two were likely to be.

That's how I read it too, he said all the balls went 10 yards but the last one didn't roll into the woods.

[David in FL]

The provisionals all were in the same spot either in the woods or playable on the fringe. this was 10-15 yards forward and to the right. none of these shots were further to the hole than where his original landed. yes he hit his ball 10-15 yards forward and to the right. He hit his 2nd provisional. We began walking forward and 10 yards ahead we found his original.

Given that, when he played his 2d shot with his 2d provisional, it became the ball in play, and he was lying 6 down the fairway. Gotta admit, I'm still trying to wrap my head around how you could lose site of a ball that went into the woods and bounced out again only 10 yards away.... :-\

[Martyn W]

Yes, I was reading into it as all 3 balls went to the same spot, except this one was outside the woods...so I was seeing it as his 2nd provisional ball was where his first two were likely to be.

As Wadesworld posted, a provisional (including second or even third) may be played up to the point where the original is likely to be, not where it may subsequently discovered to be (D27-2b/4).The provisional only becomes the ball in play if a stroke is made at it from a place nearer the hole than that point.

One thing to note with multiple provisionals is that  " If another provisional ball is played, it bears the same relationship to the previous provisional ball as the first provisional ball bears to the original ball" . (Note to 27-2a)

[Grinde6]

As Wadesworld posted, a provisional (including second or even third) may be played up to the point where the original is likely to be, not where it may subsequently discovered to be (D27-2b/4).The provisional only becomes the ball in play if a stroke is made at it from a place nearer the hole than that point.

One thing to note with multiple provisionals is that  "If another provisional ball is played, it bears the same relationship to the previous provisional ball as the first provisional ball bears to the original ball" .(Note to 27-2a)

Yes, this is understood, as it was mentioned in previous posts...It was unclear whether or not the 2nd provisional went further than the other 2 since the poster said they all went 10 yards and to the right...that to me says that they are all in relatively the same place...if they all 3 went to the same place they are all 3 likely to be in the same spot and therefore when he played the 2nd provisional from the likely spot the other 2 balls were, his provisional was no in play...might be reading into it different than some others, but to me he was meaning all 3 balls were in relatively the same area.

[DaveP043]

Yes, this is understood, as it was mentioned in previous posts...It was unclear whether or not the 2nd provisional went further than the other 2 since the poster said they all went 10 yards and to the right...that to me says that they are all in relatively the same place...if they all 3 went to the same place they are all 3 likely to be in the same spot and therefore when he played the 2nd provisional from the likely spot the other 2 balls were, his provisional was no in play...might be reading into it different than some others, but to me he was meaning all 3 balls were in relatively the same area.

I'm reading this slightly differently, but I'm not sure which of us is correct.  As I read it, they were all on about the same line, but the 2nd provisional stopped short of the trees, so that the original ball and the 1st provisional went further (closer to the hole) than the 2nd.  In that case, he could play the 2nd as a provisional and then search for the other two balls.  When he found the original, the provisionals would be abandoned.  I don't think we disagree on the ruling, but the relative position of the three balls isn't entirely clear to me.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martyn W

As Wadesworld posted, a provisional (including second or even third) may be played up to the point where the original is likely to be, not where it may subsequently discovered to be (D27-2b/4).The provisional only becomes the ball in play if a stroke is made at it from a place nearer the hole than that point.

One thing to note with multiple provisionals is that  "If another provisional ball is played, it bears the same relationship to the previous provisional ball as the first provisional ball bears to the original ball" .(Note to 27-2a)

Yes, this is understood, as it was mentioned in previous posts...It was unclear whether or not the 2nd provisional went further than the other 2 since the poster said they all went 10 yards and to the right...that to me says that they are all in relatively the same place...if they all 3 went to the same place they are all 3 likely to be in the same spot and therefore when he played the 2nd provisional from the likely spot the other 2 balls were, his provisional was no in play...might be reading into it different than some others, but to me he was meaning all 3 balls were in relatively the same area.

The rule says if a stroke is made at a provisional ball at or near where the original ball (and/or previous provisional ball) is thought to be , any balls hit prior to that provisional ball are abandoned and the provisional ball becomes the ball in play.  The fact that all 3 balls were in the same area brings this into play, and when he made the stroke at the 2nd provisional ball, it was the ball in play.  When he then played the original ball, it was a wrong ball - additional two stroke penalty and he needed to correct that mistake by finishing with what was the 2nd provisional ball for a very high score.  He would have been lying 8 after returning to play out the hole with the 2nd provisional ball.