Religion vs. Atheism Thread

[Duff McGee]

People believe in a God because there are too many things we can't comprehend or understand.  As an agnostic, we don't ask for proof there is or isn't a God, we accept that as a possibility without committing to a specific organized religion that has interpreted who or what this God is and expects from us. The fact that we are part of a world order that we don't understand nor fully appreciate our role in leads even scientists to believe there is something greater than us at work. I'll stop believing in a God when science can prove without any question how life in a single cell organism began.  Something created "life", until we know for certain what that is, what harm is there in assigning that creation to something that is beyond our intelligence to grasp. As for why most people believe in organized religions it's quite simple, they believe out of fear, comfort or a means to defer to a higher power when the world around them is too confusing for them to understand.

So you are a theist then, not an agnostic.

[saevel25]

So you are a theist then, not an agnostic.

How does answering why people are religious makes himself a religious?

I can make my own comments on why I think people gravitate towards religion and still not be religious. I don't get that response you just made if it's associated with the bolded text in the quote.

[Duff McGee]

How does answering why people are religious makes himself a religious?  I can make my own comments on why I think people gravitate towards religion and still not be religious. I don't get that response you just made if it's associated with the bolded text in the quote.

Gee, I wonder why? Oh.... "I'll stop believing in a God when science can prove without any question how life in a single cell organism began" But anyway, newtogolf seems to think repeating a God of the gaps fallacy and demanding atheists to prove a negative even though we have given him at least 5 examples of why this is objectively, logically wrong, is the way to go. It's almost like theists are just skimming and ignoring the atheists' explanations. Like maybe there is this mental block.....no way it's cognitive dissonance. It's just not possible.

[Abu3baid]

Gee, I wonder why? Oh.... "I'll stop believing in a God when science can prove without any question how life in a single cell organism began" But anyway, newtogolf seems to think repeating a God of the gaps fallacy and demanding atheists to prove a negative even though we have given him at least 5 examples of why this is objectively, logically wrong, is the way to go. It's almost like theists are just skimming and ignoring the atheists' explanations. Like maybe there is this mental block.....no way it's cognitive dissonance. It's just not possible.

What explanation have you been giving exactly? I haven't seen anything except you asking for proof of God.. People have been asking for proof since the age of time so you aren't asking for something new here.. Let's look at it from another perspective. And I'm willing to go along as you don't just ignore what is said. One can not simply deny that the prophet Jesus existed can he? Or deny that the prophet Mohammad existed can he? You can deny or reject that they are prophets, but at the very least can we agree that they actually existed as human beings or do you have doubt regarding that as well?

[newtogolf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duff McGee


So you are a theist then, not an agnostic.

You are showing your lawyer self here, you take bits and pieces of what people write and use them to form your own conclusions.  I'm agnostic, but I'm not as close minded as you to believe I know everything about this world and how it was created.  The fact you speak in terms like "God of the gaps fallacy" demonstrates that your mind is closed as you dismiss the fact that science has no clue how life started.  When science can't provide the answers then the only explanation for not deferring to the potential of a higher power is arrogance.

Agnostic means;

Quote:

a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

A Theist;

Quote:

believes there is a God who made and governs all creation; but does not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, nor in a divine revelation.

I've stated very consistently that until science can prove how life started I hold out the potential that life was created by a God / superior being.  In the sentence you quoted to Matt, I didn't mean to say I believe I meant that I hold open the potential that one did.  You conversely are an atheist

Quote:

a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

I find it interesting that you give Bruce Jenner the benefit of the doubt that he self-identifies himself as a female despite all the scientific and biological proof that indicates he is a male but will mock those who believe in a God when there is nothing in science that can prove how life was created.

[Duff McGee]

When science can't provide the answers then the only explanation for not deferring to the potential of a higher power is arrogance.

I am at a loss for words. I'm sorry newtogolf but I can't have this conversation with you anymore. @Abu3baid Due to recent discoveries, historians and archaeologists are very much beginning to doubt that Jesus was an actual person, interestingly enough.

[Pretzel]

Due to recent discoveries, historians and archaeologists are very much beginning to doubt that Jesus was an actual person, interestingly enough.

Would you mind providing a source for that?

[Abu3baid]

I am at a loss for words. I'm sorry newtogolf but I can't have this conversation with you anymore. @Abu3baid Due to recent discoveries, historians and archaeologists are very much beginning to doubt that Jesus was an actual person, interestingly enough.

Did you read half the question? Or you just choose to ignore the other person I mentioned? Did he exist as a real person or not? Anyway, I am actually about to travel so I won't be checking in for another 13 hours or so.. I hope you can provide a source of the "scientists" denying that a person named Jesus existed as well.

[newtogolf]

I am at a loss for words. I'm sorry newtogolf but I can't have this conversation with you anymore.

@Abu3baid

Due to recent discoveries, historians and archaeologists are very much beginning to doubt that Jesus was an actual person, interestingly enough.

A lawyer at a loss for words...

I'm not shocked, that's your modus operandi for how you debate in these forums.  You ignore parts of arguments you can't defend and highlight areas where you can pick things apart, just as you did with Eyad where you state there is doubt that Jesus was an actual person but completely ignore his mention of the prophet Mohammad.

[Duff McGee]

A lawyer at a loss for words... I'm not shocked, that's your modus operandi for how you debate in these forums.  You ignore parts of arguments you can't defend and highlight areas where you can pick things apart, just as you did with Eyad where you state there is doubt that Jesus was an actual person but completely ignore his mention of the prophet Mohammad.

I agree. You win.

[Gunther]

I agree. You win.

The smartest post you've written in these threads.

[Duff McGee]

The smartest post you've written in these threads.

Definitely.

[RGoosen]

Should we all sing Kumbaya now? :)

[newtogolf]

Should we all sing Kumbaya now? :)

That's not even funny, well, actually it kind of is.

[Duff McGee]

I am very impressed by everyone's grasp of logic, debate, and just general intelligence. Now, while I cannot naturally become as smart as you guys (intelligence is innate), do you guys have any recommendations on how I can at least make a coherent argument? Do you have any books on logic you would recommend? And I think I've read just about all the most popular Christian apologists' works, but it's clear I didn't understand them properly. Do you have any beginner's guide to theism type books you could recommend? Thank you in advance.

[Gunther]

I am very impressed by everyone's grasp of logic, debate, and just general intelligence. Now, while I cannot naturally become as smart as you guys (intelligence is innate), do you guys have any recommendations on how I can at least make a coherent argument? Do you have any books on logic you would recommend? And I think I've read just about all the most popular Christian apologists' works, but it's clear I didn't understand them properly. Do you have any beginner's guide to theism type books you could recommend? Thank you in advance.

I recommend you stick to golf.

[Duff McGee]

I recommend you stick to golf.

That's not very nice. I find it interesting that the only people using personal attacks on this thread have been the mob of theists. Normally, that indicates that a person's opinion is based on emotion and not reason, but again, you guys know more about argumentation and logical fallacies than I do. I would love to learn from the experts if you guys will have me.

[billchao]

I am very impressed by everyone's grasp of logic, debate, and just general intelligence. Now, while I cannot naturally become as smart as you guys (intelligence is innate), do you guys have any recommendations on how I can at least make a coherent argument? Do you have any books on logic you would recommend? And I think I've read just about all the most popular Christian apologists' works, but it's clear I didn't understand them properly. Do you have any beginner's guide to theism type books you could recommend? Thank you in advance.

Don't be childish. You started this thread and now you don't like the responses that you've received so you're going to be snide about it now? Either talk about the subject or don't. [quote name="Duff McGee" url="/t/84478/religion-vs-atheism-thread/120#post_1201298"] That's not very nice. I find it interesting that the only people using personal attacks on this thread have been the mob of theists. Normally, that indicates that a person's opinion is based on emotion and not reason, but again, you guys know more about argumentation and logical fallacies than I do. I would love to learn from the experts if you guys will have me.[/quote]I haven't seen any personal attacks from anyone here. Prove to me that they exist. The only thing that I see is that people have called you out on your inability to answer the points being set before you, choosing instead to cherry pick your responses. Also, you don't seem to understand that agnostic != atheist. Stop with the victim stuff or you'll get restricted from your own thread.