UFC 193 Rousey vs Holm

[Gunther]

Insightful article if not a bit of a puff piece.  Ronda still seems a little out of it to me but I think she has a shot in the rematch even though there appears to be style mismatch.  The last part of the article, with her coach, was interesting.  She wanted to win grandiosely, as is expected of her.  She paid for her impatience with a huge head shot early and never recovered.  I think she'll be a lot smarter and more patient in the next fight.  

http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_/page/espnwrousey/in-exclusive-interview-ronda-rousey-says-not-losing-holly-holm

[newtogolf]

Rhonda had too much going on in her personal life to be mentally prepared for that fight.  People were dismissing Holm because they assumed she couldn't knock Rhonda out and Rhonda would eventually just break her arm when she got tired of eating Holms jabs.

Rhonda is a celebrity now, doing movies, late night television and modeling, I'm not sure she's hungry enough to train and fight in the Octagon anymore.

[Gator Hazard]

2 hours ago, newtogolf said:

Rhonda had too much going on in her personal life to be mentally prepared for that fight.  People were dismissing Holm because they assumed she couldn't knock Rhonda out and Rhonda would eventually just break her arm when she got tired of eating Holms jabs.

Rhonda is a celebrity now, doing movies, late night television and modeling, I'm not sure she's hungry enough to train and fight in the Octagon anymore.

I think this is going to make her train and focus harder than ever. Anyone who hates losing as much as she does will be compelled to fight and beat the person who beat them. The celebrity is secondary. Fighting, and winning is the most addictive drug there is. She is a competitor. She doesnt like winning, she loves winning, more than anything else. Whether she wins is anyones guess but I dont doubt she comes back wiser and more prepared/focused. 

Edited December 9, 2015 by Gator Hazard

[newtogolf]

2 hours ago, Gator Hazard said:

I think this is going to make her train and focus harder than ever. Anyone who hates losing as much as she does will be compelled to fight and beat the person who beat them. The celebrity is secondary. Fighting, and winning is the most addictive drug there is. She is a competitor. She doesnt like winning, she loves winning, more than anything else. Whether she wins is anyones guess but I dont doubt she comes back wiser and more prepared/focused.

I hope you're right, she's a great fighter and put women's MMA on the map.  I don't want to see her retire any time soon.

[Gator Hazard]

10 hours ago, newtogolf said:

I hope you're right, she's a great fighter and put women's MMA on the map.  I don't want to see her retire any time soon.

Me too.  My main concern is not that she can't train for a strategy that will beat Holly Holm.  It is that she won't have enough time to train properly and get ready with all of the celebrity contractual obligations she has.  She has several movies to make, one of which she is the star in.  She has been promised her rematch but Dana White and the Fertittas have a business to run and they are not going to sideline their champion for a year or more while Rhonda is doing other things.  I think she may try to bite off more than she can chew because they strong arm her into agreeing to a fight that is 8 months away when really she needs a little over a year to finish up her other projects and focus again on fighting.  I have to say that I was not a Rousey fan, but the more I have looked into her and the more I have read about her and the fights I have seen of her show that in the ring she is a marvelous specimen.  People can say what they want about the depth of the field but she is a world champion judoka.  Everyone wants to say that she doesn't know what it is like to be a true champion and they forget that she was the world champion having won the Pan American Games Gold and her loss in the Olympics was actually (I don't want to say the word upset) not anticipated as it was against an individual she had beaten twice.  In UFC she beat an Olympic wrestling silver medalist.  I think she has more than earned the title of a world class and elite fighter.  

Her personality outside of the ring leaves something to be desired but the articles recently have shown a different side of her and it is easier to understand why she is the way she is.  I still think she needs to improve in that area.

Depending on the timing of the next fight I may actually put some money on her to win.  I know how it is to be in her shoes (at a much, much, MUCH smaller scale) and know first hand that an opponent who has beaten you can be beaten with the proper training and mind frame.  She has to put aside the loss portion of the fight and learn from the rest of it.  If it were me, in the next fight I would attack the legs.  It doesn't do well to try and throw someone with a hip toss who is significantly taller than you.  She really needs to train in that specific area, single and double leg takedowns.  They are the most effective means of putting someone on the mat for a reason.  Then she can focus on ground game that allows her to do what she needs too, up to and including slipping an arm bar.  Rhonda has more ground game training than Holly and needs to exploit that weakness, which is exactly what Holly is going to work on in her training for the rematch.  Barring a quick knockout or TKO one way or the other it should be a hell of a fight.

If she wins she has the opportunity to do something I would like to see:  Correct course and set an example of what martial arts is about.  I would love to see her be an elegant champion, give some respect to Holly Holm, shake hands, say nice things about her and show that MMA can be what it used to be.  Show the other fighters and the public that all the baloney hype stuff from boxing doesn't have to be a part of the sport, that martial artists practice respect and restraint above all other things.  Wishful thinking but would be nice.

[Mr. Desmond]

I know very little but it's interesting as I learn more about Rousey - from what I read and saw, Rousey did not show patience, and her aggressiveness played into Holm's hands and legs. The match was a few more notches up the ladder and she was not prepared for the higher air.

[Jeremie Boop]

This was the first time she's ever really faced another world class athlete in MMA. The problem with Rousey was just that she is basically a very one dimensional fighter. There have been other fighters like her who had success until they faced someone who was able to neutralize that one thing. She needs A LOT of work on her striking if she is to have any chance of beating Holly in the rematch. It's much easier to learn take-down defense than it is to bring striking up to the level it needs to be to deal with Holm. And Holm's take-down defense looked good already, so she doesn't have much to improve in that area it seems. Just think about what she said, she got hit early, and it was so hard she was out of it the rest of the fight. This most likely will make her very tentative in the next fight, knowing that one shot has the ability to basically shut her down will be a very hard thing to overcome. Rousey won so decidedly previously because of her tremendous aggression and confidence, I don't really see her coming into the next fight with Holm with those two major factors after what happened in the last fight. I'll admit, I've never likely Rousey much. I've felt like she was over hyped. While she fought "the best" in her division in the UFC, I don't really think that those opponents compared to what other people faced in their divisions. I understand that is a direct result of the rather new nature of women's MMA, however other people took her dominance as testament only to her overwhelming skill. I have no problem agreeing with the fact that she's a fantastic athlete, but I just can't agree that she's anywhere near as good/dominant as others in this sport were/still are. Fighters like Anderson Silva, George St. Pierre, Jon Jones, Chris Weidman, Jose Aldo... These are all fighters who have or had streaks longer than Rousey against much more established and dangerous fighters. Hell, even Connor McGregor has proven himself more than Rousey had. *Side note, I can't wait to see the McGregor vs Aldo fight* Not saying they always won very quickly or in dramatic fashion, but the people they fought were much better fighters than those that Ronda ever faced, until Holm. In my mind, women's MMA has a ways to go before it will become as deep and competitive as the Men's is.

 

Edited December 9, 2015 by Jeremie Boop

[newtogolf]

9 minutes ago, Mr. Desmond said:

I know very little but it's interesting as I learn more about Rousey - from what I read and saw, Rousey did not show patience, and her aggressiveness played into Holm's hands and legs. The match was a few more notches up the ladder and she was not prepared for the higher air.

I think Rousey was mis-coached, she had no business standing up with Holm and striking with her.  Her coach convinced her she could out-strike Holm and discouraged her from taking the match down to the mat for a submission.  Rousey won some matches against lesser opponents with striking and I think she and her coach severely under-estimated how good a professional boxer is at striking (see her comments on Mayweather) and making their opponents miss.

There's nothing wrong with being a submission fighter in MMA and while striking is a good skill to have, she's never going to beat Holm in a boxing match, she needs to make it a judoka match and go for the arm bar.

[Gator Hazard]

18 minutes ago, Mr. Desmond said:

I know very little but it's interesting as I learn more about Rousey - from what I read and saw, Rousey did not show patience, and her aggressiveness played into Holm's hands and legs. The match was a few more notches up the ladder and she was not prepared for the higher air.

Very true, one of the articles someone here linked too discussed that, how it was not enough for her to just win.  That the expectations were that she had to win in some remarkable fashion.  The one flying back flip/somersault armbar take down made my jaw drop.  Unbelievable skill and athleticism needed to pull off a maneuver like that against another professional fighter.  I mean, how do you top that???  So I think she went in there trying to do something along those lines, with the feeling she could probably box a little with Holm and was taught that she could not.  

She needs to be cautious and work more on (laughably) circling instead of going straight at her opponent because that opponent is a world champion boxer first and foremost.  Take the aggressiveness down a little bit and focus more on an overall strategy to take away the left hand of Holm and her punching power.  The one thing she never really learned to take in Judo was a straight overhand left followed up by a right cross from a world class boxer.  Ha-ha.  Now that she has tasted that maybe she can change her strategy up a bit.

9 minutes ago, Jeremie Boop said:

This was the first time she's ever really faced another world class athlete in MMA. The problem with Rousey was just that she is basically a very one dimensional fighter. There have been other fighters like her who had success until they faced someone who was able to neutralize that one thing. She needs A LOT of work on her striking if she is to have any chance of beating Holly in the rematch. It's much easier to learn take-down defense than it is to bring striking up to the level it needs to be to deal with Holm. And Holm's take-down defense looked good already, so she doesn't have much to improve in that area it seems. Just think about what she said, she got hit early, and it was so hard she was out of it the rest of the fight. This most likely will make her very tentative in the next fight, knowing that one shot has the ability to basically shut her down will be a very hard thing to overcome. Rousey won so decidedly previously because of her tremendous aggression and confidence, I don't really see her coming into the next fight with Holm with those two major factors after what happened in the last fight. I'll admit, I've never likely Rousey much. I've felt like she was over hyped. While she fought "the best" in her division in the UFC, I don't really think that those opponents compared to what other people faced in their divisions. I understand that is a direct result of the rather new nature of women's MMA, however other people took her dominance as testament only to her overwhelming skill. I have no problem agreeing with the fact that she's a fantastic athlete, but I just can't agree that she's anywhere near as good/dominant as others in this sport were/still are. Fighters like Anderson Silva, George St. Pierre, Jon Jones, Chris Weidman, Jose Aldo... These are all fighters who have or had streaks longer than Rousey against much more established and dangerous fighters. Hell, even Connor McGregor has proven himself more than Rousey had. *Side note, I can't wait to see the McGregor vs Aldo fight* Not saying they always won very quickly or in dramatic fashion, but the people they fought were much better fighters than those that Ronda ever faced, until Holm. In my mind, women's MMA has a ways to go before it will become as deep and competitive as the Men's is.

 

Not exactly, she faced an olympic silver medalist in freestyle wrestling.  Free style wrestling has many similarities to Judo on your feet and provides a very good ground game, the biggest adjustment is not forgetting in MMA or jiu jitsu the opponent on their back is not always in a bad place if they have enough skill, a mental adjustment wrestlers need to make to keep awareness up.

Part of the reason Rousey didn't have as much experience or depth of a field is entirely out of her control, it didn't exist until recently.  She did compete at the highest levels in her sport however, and was successful for quite some time being the youngest ever world ranked #1 American female in judo at age 15.  So yes, there is some time to go still until it has the depth of talent and experience the men's side has, something the men's side really just went through about 10 years ago or so when the popularity really started picking up.  MMA in general is a fairly new sport.

12 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

I think Rousey was mis-coached, she had no business standing up with Holm and striking with her.  Her coach convinced her she could out-strike Holm and discouraged her from taking the match down to the mat for a submission.  Rousey won some matches against lesser opponents with striking and I think she and her coach severely under-estimated how good a professional boxer is at striking (see her comments on Mayweather) and making their opponents miss.

There's nothing wrong with being a submission fighter in MMA and while striking is a good skill to have, she's never going to beat Holm in a boxing match, she needs to make it a judoka match and go for the arm bar.

I agree, I also think she believed her own hype and that of other boxers who liked what they were seeing.  She let ego get in the way and wanted to see if she could stand and box with a great boxer, now she knows she should not try that.  Her coach in one interview mentions that they worked a lot on slipping the left to get in close on Holm.  I think the strategy fell apart when Rhonda wanted to show people she is becoming more than just a one trick pony.  It fell apart even more when she tried to go for a hip toss instead of a different take down that takes away Holm's height advantage.  

Edited December 9, 2015 by Gator Hazard

[Jeremie Boop]

8 minutes ago, Gator Hazard said:

Not exactly, she faced an olympic silver medalist in freestyle wrestling.  Free style wrestling has many similarities to Judo on your feet and provides a very good ground game, the biggest adjustment is not forgetting in MMA or jiu jitsu the opponent on their back is not always in a bad place if they have enough skill, a mental adjustment wrestlers need to make to keep awareness up.

I see, I must have missed that about one of her opponents. Probably because that specific fighter, Sara McMann, has lost 3 of 5 fights in the UFC and got a title shot after 1 win in the UFC against a fighter that is 0 and 2 in the UFC. Her other win was against another woman who is also 0 and 2 in the UFC. The only other fighter I was able to find a record for quickly that she won against has also lost her last 5 fights, 2 of which were before he fight with McMann. This is what I mean by women's MMA having a ways to go. There just isn't enough of a fighter pool yet for the truly great fighters to prove themselves against. Holly is going to run into the same problem, I think. It took years for the men's UFC roster to actually have a lot of great fighters in it. These days most fights can be won by either fighter on the men's side, lots of upsets happen when it used to be pretty obvious who was going to win each fight. So when a guy starts beating everyone in his division that, to me, really shows a level of true dominance.

[Gator Hazard]

14 minutes ago, Jeremie Boop said:

I see, I must have missed that about one of her opponents. Probably because that specific fighter, Sara McMann, has lost 3 of 5 fights in the UFC and got a title shot after 1 win in the UFC against a fighter that is 0 and 2 in the UFC. Her other win was against another woman who is also 0 and 2 in the UFC. The only other fighter I was able to find a record for quickly that she won against has also lost her last 5 fights, 2 of which were before he fight with McMann. This is what I mean by women's MMA having a ways to go. There just isn't enough of a fighter pool yet for the truly great fighters to prove themselves against. Holly is going to run into the same problem, I think. It took years for the men's UFC roster to actually have a lot of great fighters in it. These days most fights can be won by either fighter on the men's side, lots of upsets happen when it used to be pretty obvious who was going to win each fight. So when a guy starts beating everyone in his division that, to me, really shows a level of true dominance.

I agree the pool is not very deep, I was merely pointing out that she had faced another world class athlete in the mma octagon.  And women have been involved in wrestling for some time now, I remember several that were quite good in my day some 20+ years ago.

[Mr. Desmond]

The rematch appears on:

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mma/report-holm-rousey-rematch-set-for-ufc-200-in-las-vegas/ar-AAgerwH?ocid=spartanntp

[Gator Hazard]

11 minutes ago, Mr. Desmond said:

The rematch appears on:

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mma/report-holm-rousey-rematch-set-for-ufc-200-in-las-vegas/ar-AAgerwH?ocid=spartanntp

That is too soon with all her other obligations. Not good for her prospects of winning. 

[newtogolf]

2 hours ago, Gator Hazard said:

That is too soon with all her other obligations. Not good for her prospects of winning.

It's a tentative schedule, which gives her time to pull out if she decides she's not ready.  The problem Dana White has is he can't keep Holm on the shelf for much more than 6 months without a title defense.  If Holm loses to someone Rhonda has already beat the UFC loses the hype of the rematch.

While Holm beat Rousey she doesn't have seem to generate much interest from the media, which hurts the UFC promotion machine.

[MichiganLefty]

Rousey has indicated that she would retire if she loses the rematch to Holm in July 2016. Holm's manager wanted her to fight Miesha Tate during Rousey's layoff. Dana White quickly shot that down.

Dana White wasn't going to risk her getting beat by Tate and ruining the massive payoff they'll get from the rematch at UFC 200. He's going to keep milking his cash cow as long as he can.

 

[Gator Hazard]

12 hours ago, newtogolf said:

It's a tentative schedule, which gives her time to pull out if she decides she's not ready.  The problem Dana White has is he can't keep Holm on the shelf for much more than 6 months without a title defense.  If Holm loses to someone Rhonda has already beat the UFC loses the hype of the rematch.

While Holm beat Rousey she doesn't have seem to generate much interest from the media, which hurts the UFC promotion machine.

Agree on all points.  You can't shelve a champion.  Then again, if she truly is a champion and is the best she should be able to defend her title.  Funny how money changes things.........

[Gator Hazard]

*Spoiler Alert*

Spoiler

Meisha Tate just beat Holly Holm with a rear naked choke in the 5th round to take the UFC title.  

In the other fight McGregor got his mouth shut as well.  LOL.  Fighting is crazy, anything can, and usually does happen!

[Gunther]

Very disappointed in both outcomes last night.  Conor bit off more than he could chew.  I think 155 would be too much for him also.  He's a featherweight, bottom line.  Dos Anjos destroyed Diaz and I'm pretty sure he'd have done the same to MacGregor.