World Handicap System Now Out (2020)

[mauricio]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

You can't just make up Local Rules, though. This is one of the things not understood by most about the Rules of Golf. Now, it just so happens that for this instance…

@StuM, I imagine these tree roots aren't in the fairway or close to it, but maybe they are, and maybe you can institute this approved Local Rule:

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=cp&section=rule&rulenum=8

F-9 Relief from Tree Roots in Fairway

Purpose. In the unusual situation where exposed tree roots are found in the fairway, it may be unfair not to allow the player to take relief from the roots. The Committee can choose to treat such tree roots in the fairway as ground under repair from which free relief is allowed under Rule 16.1b.

In some circumstances where exposed tree roots are also found in short rough close to the fairway, the Committee can also choose to treat such tree roots within a specified distance from the edge of the fairway, (for example four club-lengths or in the first cut of rough) as ground under repair from which free relief is allowed under Rule 16.1b.

In doing so, the Committee can choose to limit relief to interference with the lie of ball and the area of intended swing.

Model Local Rule F-9.1

“If a player’s ball is at rest in a portion of the general area cut to fairway height or less and there is interference from exposed tree roots that are in a part of the general area cut to fairway height or less, the tree roots are treated as ground under repair. The player may take free relief under Rule 16.1b.

[But interference does not exist if the tree roots only interfere with the player’s stance.]

---

Otherwise, yes, I'd add the penalty stroke. Or, better yet, just do away with the Local Rule - what if a player fractures his wrist because he hit a stone, or a fence… or he tears something because he tries to play a shot off a slope or wet grass and slips and falls… are you going to start allowing free relief from everything? The guy should have taken the stroke. He might have lost the championship, but my hunch is he didn't win it after breaking his wrist.

I know you can make up local rules, I thought he said that they use a local rules according to the rules of golf. Sorry. 

[StuM]

9 hours ago, iacas said:

Otherwise, yes, I'd add the penalty stroke. Or, better yet, just do away with the Local Rule - what if a player fractures his wrist because he hit a stone, or a fence… or he tears something because he tries to play a shot off a slope or wet grass and slips and falls… are you going to start allowing free relief from everything?

The roots are not in the fairway but some are not far off.  I do not have the ability to change the “league rule” and doubt most others would agree to change it.  I think I am the only player who posts scores and probably the only one who cares.

I’ll just include the stroke in my score if it happens to me.  

 

 

[DaveP043]

2 hours ago, StuM said:

The roots are not in the fairway but some are not far off.  I do not have the ability to change the “league rule” and doubt most others would agree to change it.  I think I am the only player who posts scores and probably the only one who cares.

I’ll just include the stroke in my score if it happens to me. 

Read 2.1b(ii) in the Handicapping Rules. 

"Where a player follows the provisions set down in a Model Local Rule, even when the Committee in charge of the course has not adopted that Model Local Rule, the score may still be acceptable for handicap purposes"

That Handicapping Rule goes on to say that its really a decision for the (Handicap) Committee, I'm not sure you have access to that group. The Local Rule your league uses is similar (not identical) to the MLR that @iacas posted.  Use your judgement, if your actions would be permissible under the proper MLR, you could consider using the score you shot.  If you were way out into the forest and took "root relief", you could treat it as taking Unplayable Ball relief, adding one stroke.

[mohearn]

3 hours ago, StuM said:

The roots are not in the fairway but some are not far off.  I do not have the ability to change the “league rule” and doubt most others would agree to change it.  I think I am the only player who posts scores and probably the only one who cares.

I'm kinda the same, only one who posts and cares in detail. Our rule is similar, I think it specifies a root within two club lengths of the tree (something like that, maybe not exact).  I had it happen only once, moved the ball, got a bogey and probably posted the 9-hole round.  Not even sure that round made it into the top 8 for HCP calcs, and even if so, it's contribution would be only a fraction (and on the vanity-cap side of things. ) 

So I think you're doing the right thing, and probably effectively almost moot.

Good golf!

 

[Southern by Choice]

Another local rule question…

Note that the NET score posted will be your max, both for the competition and for posting purposes.  I think this artificially inflates handicaps, if nothing else.

If you pick up on a hole, mark the hole with an X and you will receive your max score as the net score for that hole.

[iacas]

What’s the question?

[reidsou]

5 minutes ago, Southern by Choice said:

Another local rule question…

Note that the NET score posted will be your max, both for the competition and for posting purposes.  I think this artificially inflates handicaps, if nothing else.

If you pick up on a hole, mark the hole with an X and you will receive your max score as the net score for that hole.

If you pick up on a hole you are supposed to post your most likely score, not your maximum hole score. You would post your maximum hole score only if the most likely score is equal to or greater than your maximum hole score. The maximum hole score is net double bogey. See the definitions and rule 3.1b in the Rules of Handicapping. 

Also you would never post a NET score. Only gross scores are posted. 

The effect of maximum hole score is to (slightly) lower handicaps rather than raise them. 

[Southern by Choice]

10 minutes ago, reidsou said:

If you pick up on a hole you are supposed to post your most likely score, not your maximum hole score. You would post your maximum hole score only if the most likely score is equal to or greater than your maximum hole score. The maximum hole score is net double bogey. See the definitions and rule 3.1b in the Rules of Handicapping. 

Also you would never post a NET score. Only gross scores are posted. 

The effect of maximum hole score is to (slightly) lower handicaps rather than raise them. 

Oops, my mistake.  The MAX SCORE is used for posting, and it is also used for any "game" competition.  (This is to prevent handicap strokes from reducing a hole that is not completed.) Example:  a player is lying 5 on the green in a better ball competition.  Her partner already has the hole, so she picks up to help pace of play.  She believes her most likely score to be 7, but under the LOCAL RULE, she posts 8X, which is par 4 + 2 + 2 handicap strokes.

[DaveP043]

51 minutes ago, Southern by Choice said:

Oops, my mistake.  The MAX SCORE is used for posting, and it is also used for any "game" competition.  (This is to prevent handicap strokes from reducing a hole that is not completed.) Example:  a player is lying 5 on the green in a better ball competition.  Her partner already has the hole, so she picks up to help pace of play.  She believes her most likely score to be 7, but under the LOCAL RULE, she posts 8X, which is par 4 + 2 + 2 handicap strokes.

What Local Rule is that, and is it authorized by the USGA?  Is it possible there's more to the rule than what you've quoted here?  My best guess is that this is a unauthorized rule, as it directly contradicts the procedures in the USGA/WHS Handicap Rules.  Its wrong, the Rules require her to post the Most Likely Score.  Remember that rules for handicap posting are separate from the rules for scoring in any competition.

 

[Southern by Choice]

1 minute ago, DaveP043 said:

What Local Rule is that, and is it authorized by the USGA?  Is it possible there's more to the rule than what you've quoted here?  My best guess is that this is a unauthorized rule, as it directly contradicts the procedures in the USGA/WHS Handicap Rules.  Its wrong, the Rules require her to post the Most Likely Score.  Remember that rules for handicap posting are separate from the rules for scoring in any competition.

 

It’s just a rule that the League I belong to has adopted; it makes no sense to me, either!  I've quoted the above rule in its entirety, directly from a recent email.

 

Ironically, the League has just made a revision to our By-Laws stating that we are "governed by the USGA rules of golf and local League rules."

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, Southern by Choice said:

It’s just a rule that the League I belong to has adopted; it makes no sense to me, either!  I've quoted the above rule in its entirety, directly from a recent email.

 

Ironically, the League has just made a revision to our By-Laws stating that we are "governed by the USGA rules of golf and local League rules."

As I read the Rule, they're not telling you what to post, only what your score will be for the hole for league play.  To me, its worth asking the question, and pointing out the discrepancy to the Handicapping Rules.  This is Rule 3.3 here:

https://www.usga.org/handicapping/roh/2020-rules-of-handicapping.html

 

[Southern by Choice]

33 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

As I read the Rule, they're not telling you what to post, only what your score will be for the hole for league play.  To me, its worth asking the question, and pointing out the discrepancy to the Handicapping Rules.  This is Rule 3.3 here:

https://www.usga.org/handicapping/roh/2020-rules-of-handicapping.html

 

The pro shop computes game winners and then posts scores after play.  Suggestions on how to record the hole and make this easy for all?  There are often 40 players on a League day.

[Troy Ocker]

As far as my experience from golf in my parts of Norway goes, a local rule or special rule enforced in a HCP-counting event/league/tournament, will if used represent your official score during such a round. The last two years I haven't played a single HCP-counting amateur event where a digital scoringsystem haven't been used (all scores are registered live and digital by the players on the course) and scores submitted, automatically gets digitally synced with your handicap. So if a local rule is used in such an event and that score goes on your scorecard, that will also automatically count towards your HCP here. It doesn't make much difference in the long run, and I think and the era of paper scorecards and manual registration of scores after a round is over around here. Now every flight pretty much makes one guy be marker for all and he notes all scored directly in the official digital HCP-app (where all HCP-counting scores are registered) and all players must approve their scores before they are synced online. This also makes it possible to follow results live (updated live for every holescore noted) for tournaments on any level around here. 

If a permanent local rule is in play at a course, that for instance gives a player relief in certain areas of a course, it shoulf be reflected on the rating/slope of the course. As an example: My home course has two areas that are so called protected nature reserves and a local rule (stated on our scorecards) that comes into effect if your ball ends up in there. You will get relief and are entitle to a free drop in a DZ that is placed next to it. A lot of courses have some local rules. It could be regarding power lines, driver not allowed on certain holes, etc.... It is of course all reflected in the given course's rating/sloping.           

[Troy Ocker]

On 4/29/2022 at 3:50 PM, DaveP043 said:

What Local Rule is that, and is it authorized by the USGA?  Is it possible there's more to the rule than what you've quoted here?  My best guess is that this is a unauthorized rule, as it directly contradicts the procedures in the USGA/WHS Handicap Rules.  Its wrong, the Rules require her to post the Most Likely Score.  Remember that rules for handicap posting are separate from the rules for scoring in any competition.

 

Are better ball events ever HCP-counting? I didn't think any team-events were. 

[iacas]

14 minutes ago, Troy Ocker said:

Are better ball events ever HCP-counting? I didn't think any team-events were. 

Yes. No reason why they can’t be.

[mauricio]

16 minutes ago, Troy Ocker said:

Are better ball events ever HCP-counting? I didn't think any team-events were. 

Yes, se all the formats in this link https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/roh/Default.html#rules/2 1 Acceptability of Scores.htm%3FTocPath%3DII.%20Scores%20for%20Handicap%20Purposes|Rule%202%3A%20Scores%20Acceptable%20for%20Handicap%20Purposes|_____1

 

[Troy Ocker]

27 minutes ago, iacas said:

Yes. No reason why they can’t be.

In the events I've played: if it is decided which players ball scores the hole before the other player's ball is in the hole it will be picked up to enforce speed of play and the scorecard will just be left blank for that player on that hole. Usually the speed of play is way to long already in most tournaments. If every ball is allowed to be holed out, I agree. 

[reidsou]

27 minutes ago, Troy Ocker said:

In the events I've played: if it is decided which players ball scores the hole before the other player's ball is in the hole it will be picked up to enforce speed of play and the scorecard will just be left blank for that player on that hole. Usually the speed of play is way to long already in most tournaments. If every ball is allowed to be holed out, I agree. 

The player who picked up records their most likely score. See the Rules of Handicapping.