Natural Yardage Markers - Relief

[Dormie1360]

We have a clump of Pampas grass in the rough denoting 150 yds from the green.  We've always had a "local rule" on the card stating relief from these "bushes" was available for stance and/or area of swing.  Not line of play.  Someone asked me why not line of play.  I got to thinking about it and I'm not sure we should be giving any relief from these bushes.  By definition they are not obstructions.  I did find a link where the USGA said natural yardage markers are not obstructions and therefore no relief under Rule 24.

Is a local rule for these bushes, similar to the the "young tree" local rule, even valid?

Edited December 2, 2015 by Dormie1360

[Rulesman]

The R&A have said the 'young tree' rule is only to be used if the object is 'young and in need of protection'. However, they haven't said what sort of growing object comes under the umbrella of 'tree'. Incidentally, is pampas grass a bush?

I suggest either get a ruling from the USGA/R&A or declare the area to be GUR.

 

[Patch]

Pampas Grass is a perenial grass that can grow really tall. Have some in our back yard about 6 foot tall. Probably makes a nice bush too....

[Fourputt]

14 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

The R&A have said the 'young tree' rule is only to be used if the object is 'young and in need of protection'. However, they haven't said what sort of growing object comes under the umbrella of 'tree'. Incidentally, is pampas grass a bush?

I suggest either get a ruling from the USGA/R&A or declare the area to be GUR.

 

It's a decorative grass used in landscaping that is planted in bunches like a shrub, but not with a woody stem.  It's a real grass.  It can grow 4 - 6 feet tall under the right growing conditions.  I can see a single clump of it being used for a yardage marker, but I don't see any rule or decision that would allow it to be marked for relief.  For that reason, I would think that it's not a very good practice, as it is certainly more of an obstacle to play than any yardage marker I've seen.  

It was fairly common 25+ years ago to use a or small tree shrub for a 150 yard marker, but that has gone out of style for the most part, and I think that is partly because of the rules conflict.  It's also less of a maintenance issue to embed a sleeve in the ground with a removable post for yardage designators.

[Rulesman]

Sorry guys, I know about pampas grass. My question was a bit tongue in cheek.

[Missouri Swede]

50 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

I suggest either get a ruling from the USGA/R&A or declare the area to be GUR.

Can an area be permanently GUR?

[Fourputt]

58 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

Can an area be permanently GUR?

There is no time limitation in the definition of Ground under Repair.

[Rulesman]

Think of flower beds or small garden areas next to the clubhouse

[Dormie1360]

Thanks guys.  The grass was originally put in when Palmer built the course in '91.  Since then we have added 150 yard plates in the fairways as well as movable stakes.  Given that, plus the fact everyone has some kind of personal yardage device now, I'm going to recommend we just remove them.  I know that will make the superintendent happy.

6 hours ago, Rulesman said:

 Incidentally, is pampas grass a bush?

 

Bad description on my part.   

Edited December 3, 2015 by Dormie1360

[Rulesman]

Best idea. I didn't suggest it as I assumed the club wanted to keep them and that you had no alternative markers in place. 

In my conversations with the R&A some years ago re living markers, there was an audible groan when I started to ask about them. We had holly bushes at the time. The first response was 'They should be banned. Chop them down.' Unofficial advice of course. 

[pganapathy]

Another alternative is just keep it as part of the course.  Provided it is off the fairway and does not interfere with play in a major way, consider it as rough and let it just make play harder.

[Rulesman]

If this pampas grass is positioned near the fairway (likely) it could interfere with play more than it should. ie more than a conventional post say. 

[Dormie1360]

6 hours ago, pganapathy said:

Another alternative is just keep it as part of the course.  Provided it is off the fairway and does not interfere with play in a major way, consider it as rough and let it just make play harder.

Problem is, it's a lot worse than rough.  Without relief it would often mean an unplayable ball penalty. Also, I recently was about 30 seconds away from a lost ball penalty because of one of these plants.  As mentioned, most of the plants are within 5 yards of the fairway.  

[Rulesman]

Gramoxone or if members believe it looks too nice to destroy, GUR

[kpaulhus]

22 hours ago, Rulesman said:

Think of flower beds or small garden areas next to the clubhouse

At my club, they designate GUR in all flower beds during the golf season. When its winter and they pull the flowers out, its no longer GUR and you must play it as it lies. 

[Dormie1360]

56 minutes ago, kpaulhus said:

At my club, they designate GUR in all flower beds during the golf season. When its winter and they pull the flowers out, its no longer GUR and you must play it as it lies. 

Nice looking course!

[Rulesman]

11 hours ago, kpaulhus said:

At my club, they designate GUR in all flower beds during the golf season. When its winter and they pull the flowers out, its no longer GUR and you must play it as it lies. 

How do you manage to take GUR relief not nearer the hole from the flower bed on the right if the hole is to the left?

[kpaulhus]

6 hours ago, Rulesman said:

How do you manage to take GUR relief not nearer the hole from the flower bed on the right if the hole is to the left?

Very carefully lol We can move the ball north or south of the hole without it being closer.