Rule Prohibiting Caddies/Partners from Lining up Players

[luu5]

On 20.12.2015 at 9:20 PM, iacas said:

As I've said, the caddie is already prohibited from standing on the line while the player makes the stroke. This simply moves that restriction up a little bit.

And, in this case, it would have a significant positive impact on the pace of play.

This topic is not discussing random or huge ways  to limit what a caddie can and can't do.

I voted no. 

And then some OT.

On the other hand I would not be unhappy about a rule that would prohibit caddie from stepping on green at all. Players can handle the flagstick as they in 99,99% of golf rounds do anyway. And there is no other role for caddie anymore on green.

btw, talking about wasting time and caddie cleaning the ball after "every" putt.

[iacas]

10 hours ago, luu5 said:

I voted no. 

And then some OT.

On the other hand I would not be unhappy about a rule that would prohibit caddie from stepping on green at all. Players can handle the flagstick as they in 99,99% of golf rounds do anyway. And there is no other role for caddie anymore on green.

btw, talking about wasting time and caddie cleaning the ball after "every" putt.

Why would you vote "no" if you favor the caddie not even being allowed on the putting green?

[Golfingdad]

I now have a (very) little experience with the kid portion of the rule that @iacas mentioned as being a main part of his reasoning.  I played with my 12 year old nephew the other day and he tended to want to aim way too far right all of the time.  His dad and I had to help line him up a lot.

I don't see how us not being allowed to do that would speed the game up though, because he would have hit more shots into the right trees, and thus, more shots overall.

[iacas]

50 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

I now have a (very) little experience with the kid portion of the rule that @iacas mentioned as being a main part of his reasoning.  I played with my 12 year old nephew the other day and he tended to want to aim way too far right all of the time.  His dad and I had to help line him up a lot.

I don't see how us not being allowed to do that would speed the game up though, because he would have hit more shots into the right trees, and thus, more shots overall.

It speeds up play. I didn't say everyone aimed so far right that their score would be significantly higher.

[Golfingdad]

31 minutes ago, iacas said:

It speeds up play. I didn't say everyone aimed so far right that their score would be significantly higher.

I didn't say 'significantly' either.

Another point worth considering:  If me or my brother weren't allowed to stand behind him while helping him line up straight it wouldn't stop us from trying to help him line up, it would just make it a little harder because it would be a little harder for us to direct him.  I would think that would slow everything down.

[Fourputt]

5 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

I didn't say 'significantly' either.

Another point worth considering:  If me or my brother weren't allowed to stand behind him while helping him line up straight it wouldn't stop us from trying to help him line up, it would just make it a little harder because it would be a little harder for us to direct him.  I would think that would slow everything down.

How about if you teach him good principles for alignment on the range, then let him do it himself on the course.  He's never going to learn if he thinks that he can just depend on you to do it for him.

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

I didn't say 'significantly' either.

Another point worth considering:  If me or my brother weren't allowed to stand behind him while helping him line up straight it wouldn't stop us from trying to help him line up, it would just make it a little harder because it would be a little harder for us to direct him.  I would think that would slow everything down.

Drew, you're just at the point where you're speculating based on one event with a newer golfer.

In the USKG events I played, we could have easily saved 30 minutes. One girl's pre-shot routine averaged about two minutes, over half of which was her lining up with her dad/caddie saying "A little left. A little more. Nope, too far." Tough to believe… yes. Which is why I timed it several times. I'm not even averaging in the times she completely re-started her routine.

She was one of the slower ones, but other kids would easily waste 30 seconds being lined up by their parents. Putts, tee shots… everything.

Plus, what @Fourputt said. We've redefined what a "stroke" is - this rule simply suggests that the actual act of lining oneself up should be done by the player alone, too.

[Golfingdad]

4 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

How about if you teach him good principles for alignment on the range, then let him do it himself on the course.  He's never going to learn if he thinks that he can just depend on you to do it for him.

I would.  But I'm using this example to understand how others might not.  Plus, in the meantime, I would want him to not get frustrated with the game by playing poorly.

 

1 minute ago, iacas said:

Drew, you're just at the point where you're speculating based on one event with a newer golfer.

In the USKG events I played, we could have easily saved 30 minutes. One girl's pre-shot routine averaged about two minutes, over half of which was her lining up with her dad/caddie saying "A little left. A little more. Nope, too far." Tough to believe… yes. Which is why I timed it several times. I'm not even averaging in the times she completely re-started her routine.

She was one of the slower ones, but other kids would easily waste 30 seconds being lined up by their parents. Putts, tee shots… everything.

Plus, what @Fourputt said. We've redefined what a "stroke" is - this rule simply suggests that the actual act of lining oneself up should be done by the player alone, too.

Of course I am, but am I speculating any more than you though?  You are speculating that the game would be faster if that dad was not allowed behind that girl while lining her up.  You don't think he'd try and find another, quite possible less efficient way, to line her up?  How do you know?

The fact that it takes 30 seconds for the parent to help line up the kid can't automatically be called a "waste" without considering the alternative.  Sure, if the kid is decent at lining up and just wants to hit the ball already, then it is an unnecessary waste.  But if the kid isn't and will hit it all over the yard because they haven't learned good alignment yet OR if they are more nervous and more deliberate because their parent is not there to help, then it's not really wasting time versus the alternative, is it?

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Of course I am, but am I speculating any more than you though?

No. I've experienced it many, many times.

And most of the time the girl was lined up within a very small range I'd call "good" so they're just wasting time worrying about very, very few degrees.

2 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

You don't think he'd try and find another, quite possible less efficient way, to line her up?

I don't. She'd likely simply line up how she lined up to begin with without wasting a minute per shot.

In fact, twice (Natalie played with her over two rounds) her dad was unavailable to line her up (one restroom visit, one going back to get a towel), and her pre-shot routine was much, much, much shorter.

1 minute ago, Golfingdad said:

The fact that it takes 30 seconds for the parent to help line up the kid can't automatically be called a "waste" without considering the alternative.  Sure, if the kid is decent at lining up and just wants to hit the ball already, then it is an unnecessary waste.  But if the kid isn't and will hit it all over the yard because they haven't learned good alignment yet OR if they are more nervous and more deliberate because their parent is not there to help, then it's not really wasting time versus the alternative, is it?

You're reaching quite a bit.

[Golfingdad]

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

You're reaching quite a bit.

Seriously?  The ONLY reason these parents help their kids line up is because they can stand directly behind them during address?  Please.

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Seriously?  The ONLY reason these parents help their kids line up is because they can stand directly behind them during address?  Please.

I didn't say that. These kids are playing tournament golf. They're not complete crap at lining themselves up. As I said, they're within a few degrees of fine, but the parent spends a long time tweaking a few degrees here and there. If the kid hasn't learned the basics of "don't point yourself 45° to the right" then perhaps he shouldn't be playing tournament golf?

What "you're reaching" referred to was how you're thinking that the kid would take a bunch more shots to offset saving 30+ seconds per swing, or that they'd find some other way to take 30+ seconds.

They wouldn't. I'd be willing to bet a bunch of money on it. But since alternate universes haven't been created yet (that I know of), I can't prove it to you.

It would be faster. Significantly so. And the girls might even score a little bit better since it wouldn't have been 90 seconds since they last made a practice swing or whatever.

---

Edit: Yes, I think it would almost entirely eliminate parents helping their kids line up. You can't really line someone up from 45° to the target line.

---

Besides, even if play didn't speed up at all because of it, I'd still vote in favor of this: players should be able to line themselves up. No, there's no rule that prevents a caddie from helping a player take a grip, for example, or do other things the right amount (I've never seen a caddie break out a protractor to help a player get the right amount of knee flex), but those things never happen. Were they to start happening, I'd support blocking them from occurring, too.

The player should be able to line himself up. He can't get any help in making the swing, and I support the idea that he shouldn't get any help in taking his stance, either.

[Golfingdad]

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

Yes, I think it would almost entirely eliminate parents helping their kids line up. You can't really line someone up from 45° to the target line.

Fair enough.  But keep in mind that where we differ is not whether or not you CAN line someone up from 45 degrees off the line but whether or not they would still TRY.  I believe that they would.

You're trying to legislate out the overbearing dad with a rule that I believe he would consider only a minor obstacle. 

 

41 minutes ago, iacas said:

In fact, twice (Natalie played with her over two rounds) her dad was unavailable to line her up (one restroom visit, one going back to get a towel), and her pre-shot routine was much, much, much shorter.

See?  If he's not there, then it would be fine.  This rule isn't going to make him disappear though.

---

Something ironic that I just remembered:  I will be playing my first tournament ever WITH A CADDIE in a few weeks, and that caddy will be, you guessed it, my dad. 

(I can promise you he will not be lining me up though.)

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Fair enough.  But keep in mind that where we differ is not whether or not you CAN line someone up from 45 degrees off the line but whether or not they would still TRY.  I believe that they would.

I don't believe they would as much. It would become quite a bit more rare.

4 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

You're trying to legislate out the overbearing dad with a rule that I believe he would consider only a minor obstacle. 

No, I'm trying to legislate out the act entirely. I think players should line themselves up.

4 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

See?  If he's not there, then it would be fine.  This rule isn't going to make him disappear though.

I don't think he's going to try to line her up from well off the target line. It would be foolish to do so. You've seen how weird things look when a camera is only a foot away from the right spot.

[Golfingdad]

13 minutes ago, iacas said:

No, I'm trying to legislate out the act entirely. I think players should line themselves up.

I don't dispute that players should be able to line themselves up.  But the other half of your reasoning is that it will speed up play.  That is where my counter-argument with the overbearing dad is directed.  I'm not at all convinced it will do that.

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

I don't dispute that players should be able to line themselves up.  But the other half of your reasoning is that it will speed up play.  That is where my counter-argument with the overbearing dad is directed.  I'm not at all convinced it will do that.

Great. As you noted, it's not my entire argument. It may not even be half (though it is "one of two"). And again, I'd be willing to bet quite a bit that it would speed up play quite a bit based on my experiences. It would likely not speed up play very much on the LPGA Tour - the caddie isn't there too long* at that level - but quite a bit for some of these kids who are learning that this is the way to play golf.

* For those players, the other reason for me is far more relevant - that players should be responsible for this stuff themselves.

[Fourputt]

It's been my experience - limited I admit, as I don't have any kids of my own - that kids love it when Dad takes them to the practice green and works on putting with them, including playing some sort of game in the process.  You get time together, the child learns something he/she can use on the course, and you help bond a friendship that may go well beyond just the parent/child relationship.  

And even more important, you make Erik happy.  

[zero]

Does anyone have a photo or video demonstrating the current behavior that would would be affected? I'm just having a hard time visualizing this. I think I heard recently it's very prominent on the LPGA tour.

[iacas]

44 minutes ago, zero said:

Does anyone have a photo or video demonstrating the current behavior that would would be affected? I'm just having a hard time visualizing this. I think I heard recently it's very prominent on the LPGA tour.

Watch any LPGA Tour event. You'll see it sooner or later, and that's not to say it doesn't happen a lot more than they show: it can always be edited out, or the caddie out of frame.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/golf/10957392/Laura-Davies-demands-ban-on-caddies-lining-up-putts-ahead-of-Ricoh-Womens-British-Open.html

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2014/7/9/davies-on-caddies-lining-up-players-time-to-end-it.html

http://www.golfdigest.com/story/stina0710

I'd have recorded some of the fathers doing it during the USKG events, but my phone only had a 20 GB free space, so I'm not sure I could have captured the whole pre-shot alignment routine… </sarcasm>