Why is shallowing early better the shallowing late?

[Abu3baid]

4 minutes ago, MattM said:

First, I want to apologize for typing Lehman instead of layman.  I was at work and had to be quick. 

Iacas, come on man!  Just saying shallow out doesn't do anything to help the conversation!  Does it?  I'm not asking for a "swing feel."  Time and time again you guys have posted threads about what is happening in the swing without worry about "swing feels." 

Here is what I know (since I'm a paying customer of Evolvr) shallowing out the downswing by moving away from the ball (early extension) is bad if done too much.  I was doing it too much.  Saying that does not invoke a "swing feel."  Does it?

You can tell us what SHOULD BE DONE to shallow the swing early or gradually.  There is a right way to do it.  At least I would think there is?  For instance, I would think that the trail elbow (as Naturboy mentioned) would drop towards the back hip and start to point down the line some.  I don't know how much because I'm not a professional.  Do you guys have limits as to how some of this should be done? 

Iacas, you said that a little early extension won't necessarily hurt.  Does that mean that the head can move off of the ball a little?  I'm asking because THESE ARE my actually priorities right now.  The more I know on the right way to shallow the downswing the closer I am to fully understanding and fixing it.  

I was shallowing by moving off of the ball, but I hit absurd duckhooks.  When I don't move off the ball I get kind of steep in my downswing (which is not good either).  Knowing the right moves to make can help start someone down the right path.  I think the trail elbow information that Natureboy put up could be helpful to me.   

The thing is though that this isn't the topic at hand, so going into deep dive answers here would just be OT.. 

Discussing your priority and asking for help on feels of shallowing the club on the DS is more of a myswing type post..  

Finally, @iacas explained that feels are different and specific to different people, so there isn't much for him to say really.. I might feel that I'm swinging out to right field at 45* while if you were told to do that you might just start shanking or coming over the top more..  I think your being a little unfair in your post.

[mvmac]

19 minutes ago, MattM said:

You can tell us what SHOULD BE DONE to shallow the swing early or gradually.  There is a right way to do it.  At least I would think there is?  For instance, I would think that the trail elbow (as Naturboy mentioned) would drop towards the back hip and start to point down the line some.  I don't know how much because I'm not a professional.  Do you guys have limits as to how some of this should be done? 

There isn't one definitive answer. What "SHOULD" happen doesn't always happen. Look at Mickelson at A5, shaft is steeper than most players. Generally you see good players with the shaft at or just outside the ball at A5 and online or just inside and hands at A6. That's what "should" happen. The "HOW" will be different for each player depending on their swings and priorities. 

From my experience doing the pivot stuff properly, lower body transferring and opening (think Lee Trevino), is an important piece to shallowing the club. As well as not loading the club shallow on the backswing.

[iacas]

25 minutes ago, MattM said:

Iacas, come on man!  Just saying shallow out doesn't do anything to help the conversation! Does it? I'm not asking for a "swing feel." Time and time again you guys have posted threads about what is happening in the swing without worry about "swing feels."

You're missing the point, and unfairly being rude to me because of it. The simplest way to explain what is going on is that the club shaft goes from closer to | to more like —. It shallows. That's explaining it in laymen's terms, which is what you asked me to do.

25 minutes ago, MattM said:

Here is what I know (since I'm a paying customer of Evolvr) shallowing out the downswing by moving away from the ball (early extension) is bad if done too much. I was doing it too much. Saying that does not invoke a "swing feel." Does it?

No, but that's not what you asked, and it's specific to ONE thing. There are many, many ways to shallow out the club. I was not going to spend an hour trying to make a comprehensive list.

25 minutes ago, MattM said:

You can tell us what SHOULD BE DONE to shallow the swing early or gradually. There is a right way to do it. At least I would think there is? For instance, I would think that the trail elbow (as Naturboy mentioned) would drop towards the back hip and start to point down the line some.  I don't know how much because I'm not a professional.  Do you guys have limits as to how some of this should be done?

Sorry, but no… that would be a complete waste of time to list all the biomechanical movements, and even if I did so, that would only be true for one swing. If someone else's right elbow is in a slightly different position, it could all be different.

It's an intricate thing, and you don't seem to appreciate that. Ultimately, the simplest answer I can give is the one I gave: the club shaft shallows out. HOW it does that is an intricate sequence that varies by the player. If I were to speak in generalities, well, what point would that serve? So I made it the ultimate generality: the shaft shallows. It gets closer to horizontal.

25 minutes ago, MattM said:

Iacas, you said that a little early extension won't necessarily hurt. Does that mean that the head can move off of the ball a little? I'm asking because THESE ARE my actually priorities right now.  The more I know on the right way to shallow the downswing the closer I am to fully understanding and fixing it.

Seems off topic to me. A little EE is often just fine. I don't know what dimension you mean when you say "off" the ball (I typically say "off" to mean "toward the trail side" [right for a righty]). This thread's about shallowing the shaft early versus late.

25 minutes ago, MattM said:

I was shallowing by moving off of the ball, but I hit absurd duckhooks.  When I don't move off the ball I get kind of steep in my downswing (which is not good either).  Knowing the right moves to make can help start someone down the right path.  I think the trail elbow information that Natureboy put up could be helpful to me.   

I think you should listen to whatever your evolvr instructor is telling you to do.

BTW, @Abu3baid pretty much nails it:

16 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

The thing is though that this isn't the topic at hand, so going into deep dive answers here would just be OT.. 

Discussing your priority and asking for help on feels of shallowing the club on the DS is more of a myswing type post..  

Finally, @iacas explained that feels are different and specific to different people, so there isn't much for him to say really.. I might feel that I'm swinging out to right field at 45* while if you were told to do that you might just start shanking or coming over the top more..  I think your being a little unfair in your post.

[MattM]

Ok....let's all back up here.  First I asked a legitimate question and was made fun of because I typed lehman's instead of layman's terms.  Then you said that the answer to my question asking what is the RIGHT way to shallow the club early was to shallow the club early, which struck me as being a little condescending.  The reason why that was (in my opinion) condescending has to do with a previous post that you made stating that some EE isn't bad.  EE by yours and others' admissions is a way to shallow the club early.  Clearly, by every lesson I've received and statement I've read on this forum too much EE is really bad.  

I honestly thought that my question was an obvious one....  There are certain actions that one can do which would help them shallow the club early THE RIGHT WAY.  Then there are several actions one can do to shallow the club early the wrong way (too much EE can be one).  BTW the EE I'm referring to has to do with me essentially standing up and (from a DTL view) moving my head away from the ball.  

Also, everyone seems to be thinking I'm asking for swing feels.  I am not.  Saying that I EE is not talking about a swing feel.  I was asking from a technical standpoint (I.E. shoulder angle in relation to hip angle etc).  What are some characteristics the differentiate as swing that properly shallows the club versus improperly.

Finally, in my capacity with the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania I have to look at every question from all angles to properly answer it.....  The post asked, "Why is shallowing early better than shallowing late."  Mvmac and a few others replied with answers about why they thought shallowing early was better than shallowing late.  The problem I saw with the main question is that it is ONE MAJOR GENERALITY that does not delve enough into the specifics to be answered.  I guess IN GENERAL it's better to shallow early (if you are doing it the right way) than late.  A more specific question I would ask is whether or not it's better to shallow early by utilizing too much EE, or to shallow late by pushing the arms out?  In my opinion this is where the question gets tricky, so I asked my question to start framing the answer in a more comprehensive way.  

I'm sorry if it led to confusion. 

[MattM]

10 hours ago, mvmac said:

There isn't one definitive answer. What "SHOULD" happen doesn't always happen. Look at Mickelson at A5, shaft is steeper than most players. Generally you see good players with the shaft at or just outside the ball at A5 and online or just inside and hands at A6. That's what "should" happen. The "HOW" will be different for each player depending on their swings and priorities. 

From my experience doing the pivot stuff properly, lower body transferring and opening (think Lee Trevino), is an important piece to shallowing the club. As well as not loading the club shallow on the backswing.

Actually, this is coming close to answering my question. So to back it up to A4 (is a4 the top of the backswing?).  What do you generally see good players do to shallow their swings early from A4.  What "should" happen from A4 to shallow the club early for a good player? 

I think in one of your first posts in this thread Mvmac you listed what players usually do to shallow the club late.

[mvmac]

1 hour ago, MattM said:

 A more specific question I would ask is whether or not it's better to shallow early by utilizing too much EE, or to shallow late by pushing the arms out?  In my opinion this is where the question gets tricky, so I asked my question to start framing the answer in a more comprehensive way.  

Neither are good. You can't really shallow late by pushing the arms out, it's too late by then. 

1 hour ago, MattM said:

What do you generally see good players do to shallow their swings early from A4. What "should" happen from A4 to shallow the club early for a good player? 

I answered that in my last post. What should happen to shallow the club early is just what happens in a good downswing. Weight transfers forward as the hips open up, head is steady, arms move down and out towards the ball. Tough to get into more detail because it can be different for each player. Good thread for you to take a look at.

I'm really not sure what else you're looking for here @MattM. Are you looking for what you need to do to shallow the club? I'd just stick with what your Evolvr instructor is telling you to do.

[Ernest Jones]

9 hours ago, MattM said:

Ok....let's all back up here.  First I asked a legitimate question and was made fun of because I typed lehman's instead of layman's terms.  Then you said that the answer to my question asking what is the RIGHT way to shallow the club early was to shallow the club early, which struck me as being a little condescending.  The reason why that was (in my opinion) condescending has to do with a previous post that you made stating that some EE isn't bad.  EE by yours and others' admissions is a way to shallow the club early.  Clearly, by every lesson I've received and statement I've read on this forum too much EE is really bad.  

I honestly thought that my question was an obvious one....  There are certain actions that one can do which would help them shallow the club early THE RIGHT WAY.  Then there are several actions one can do to shallow the club early the wrong way (too much EE can be one).  BTW the EE I'm referring to has to do with me essentially standing up and (from a DTL view) moving my head away from the ball.  

Also, everyone seems to be thinking I'm asking for swing feels.  I am not.  Saying that I EE is not talking about a swing feel.  I was asking from a technical standpoint (I.E. shoulder angle in relation to hip angle etc).  What are some characteristics the differentiate as swing that properly shallows the club versus improperly.

Finally, in my capacity with the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania I have to look at every question from all angles to properly answer it.....  The post asked, "Why is shallowing early better than shallowing late."  Mvmac and a few others replied with answers about why they thought shallowing early was better than shallowing late.  The problem I saw with the main question is that it is ONE MAJOR GENERALITY that does not delve enough into the specifics to be answered.  I guess IN GENERAL it's better to shallow early (if you are doing it the right way) than late.  A more specific question I would ask is whether or not it's better to shallow early by utilizing too much EE, or to shallow late by pushing the arms out?  In my opinion this is where the question gets tricky, so I asked my question to start framing the answer in a more comprehensive way.  

I'm sorry if it led to confusion. 

Oh c'mon Matt. The Lehman comment was only funny because Lehman is a Pro Golfer. Nobody was "making fun of you" in the malicious sense. We have a whole thread devoted to spelling and grammar mistakes. Lighten up a tad will ya? 

What, exactly, is your "capacity with the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania"? Sounds heavy. Can you help me out with some old parking tickets?

[boogielicious]

10 hours ago, MattM said:

Ok....let's all back up here.  First I asked a legitimate question and was made fun of because I typed lehman's instead of layman's terms.  Then you said that the answer to my question asking what is the RIGHT way to shallow the club early was to shallow the club early, which struck me as being a little condescending.  The reason why that was (in my opinion) condescending has to do with a previous post that you made stating that some EE isn't bad.  EE by yours and others' admissions is a way to shallow the club early.  Clearly, by every lesson I've received and statement I've read on this forum too much EE is really bad.  

I honestly thought that my question was an obvious one....  There are certain actions that one can do which would help them shallow the club early THE RIGHT WAY.  Then there are several actions one can do to shallow the club early the wrong way (too much EE can be one).  BTW the EE I'm referring to has to do with me essentially standing up and (from a DTL view) moving my head away from the ball.  

Also, everyone seems to be thinking I'm asking for swing feels.  I am not.  Saying that I EE is not talking about a swing feel.  I was asking from a technical standpoint (I.E. shoulder angle in relation to hip angle etc).  What are some characteristics the differentiate as swing that properly shallows the club versus improperly.

Finally, in my capacity with the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania I have to look at every question from all angles to properly answer it.....  The post asked, "Why is shallowing early better than shallowing late."  Mvmac and a few others replied with answers about why they thought shallowing early was better than shallowing late.  The problem I saw with the main question is that it is ONE MAJOR GENERALITY that does not delve enough into the specifics to be answered.  I guess IN GENERAL it's better to shallow early (if you are doing it the right way) than late.  A more specific question I would ask is whether or not it's better to shallow early by utilizing too much EE, or to shallow late by pushing the arms out?  In my opinion this is where the question gets tricky, so I asked my question to start framing the answer in a more comprehensive way.  

I'm sorry if it led to confusion. 

A lot of us struggle with a steep shaft at A5 and my Evolvr instructor has worked with me on it. But it may not be your #1 priority issue, which may be causing it. I think what Erik and Mike are pointing to is the cause may be different for each student, so it would be better to work on the priority piece for you and only worry about your improvement. There are many things that can cause steepness.

[MattM]

11 hours ago, mvmac said:

Neither are good. You can't really shallow late by pushing the arms out, it's too late by then. 

I answered that in my last post. What should happen to shallow the club early is just what happens in a good downswing. Weight transfers forward as the hips open up, head is steady, arms move down and out towards the ball. Tough to get into more detail because it can be different for each player. Good thread for you to take a look at.

I'm really not sure what else you're looking for here @MattM. Are you looking for what you need to do to shallow the club? I'd just stick with what your Evolvr instructor is telling you to do.

You definitely answered my question!  Thank you! 

I was having difficulty with this topic question because it was asking for an answer was if supposing the two choices were clear cut.  When the OP posted the tweet conversations it got even more confusion because it seemed as if professional teachers were conversing about the same things as if, again, both choices were completely clear cut. 

I think based on your answer to me Mvmac the answer to the question is both are actually the wrong way to do it.  The shallowing should happen naturally as a result of doing other movements correctly in the swing. 

3 hours ago, Ernest Jones said:

Oh c'mon Matt. The Lehman comment was only funny because Lehman is a Pro Golfer. Nobody was "making fun of you" in the malicious sense. We have a whole thread devoted to spelling and grammar mistakes. Lighten up a tad will ya? 

What, exactly, is your "capacity with the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania"? Sounds heavy. Can you help me out with some old parking tickets?

Sorry, I had no idea what you were talking about.  Never seen anything on Lehman.  I thought you were just laughing at my misspelling of layman. LOL....

To the second question you asked.... HAH!!!!  That's exactly why I never tell people specifically where I work!  I always get questions like this lol.......

 

 

[mvmac]

16 minutes ago, MattM said:

The shallowing should happen naturally as a result of doing other movements correctly in the swing. 

For the most part yes. There are players that will never need to think about it and there are players that need to "manually" shallow it.

[iacas]

18 hours ago, MattM said:

Then you said that the answer to my question asking what is the RIGHT way to shallow the club early was to shallow the club early, which struck me as being a little condescending.

No, that's not what happened. You asked what you did in layman's terms to shallow the shaft. As there's no way to describe it in layman's terms the HOW, I put it as basically as I could: you shallow the shaft. That's the answer, because once you cross over into giving even a little more info… you're going to have to spend an hour, and even then, it'll just be ONE way to shallow the shaft. Some players do it differently. Look at Jim Furyk versus… anyone else. Ryan Moore. Rickie Fowler old versus new. Ray Floyd. Nancy Lopez. Dustin Johnson. Zach Johnson. There's no answer that isn't horribly complex.

It's not condescending in the least.

18 hours ago, MattM said:

The reason why that was (in my opinion) condescending has to do with a previous post that you made stating that some EE isn't bad. EE by yours and others' admissions is a way to shallow the club early. Clearly, by every lesson I've received and statement I've read on this forum too much EE is really bad.

So an unrelated thing makes something else condescending? @MattM, as long as I've known you, you've been quick to take offense. Stop.

1. EE is one way to shallow the shaft. Often people who are better players that are too steep at A5 will EE a little to shallow the shaft. They'll also do other things.
2. A little EE is often not a bad thing. Sometimes it's a piece we add a little of (EE helps add speed). Too much is almost always a bad thing (though it's not always the priority).

So, my earlier comment said nothing about "too much EE." It specifically said something about a "little EE" IIRC. A little EE to help the club shallow can make a 9 into a 5. You're playing with fire if you're using EE as the primary way to shallow the shaft, though… Too much of anything can often be bad. But my comment said nothing about "too much EE."

18 hours ago, MattM said:

I honestly thought that my question was an obvious one.... There are certain actions that one can do which would help them shallow the club early THE RIGHT WAY.

That's a long freaking list. And it's different for every player.

18 hours ago, MattM said:

Then there are several actions one can do to shallow the club early the wrong way (too much EE can be one).  BTW the EE I'm referring to has to do with me essentially standing up and (from a DTL view) moving my head away from the ball.

You can EE without moving your head away from the ball.

18 hours ago, MattM said:

Also, everyone seems to be thinking I'm asking for swing feels.  I am not.  Saying that I EE is not talking about a swing feel.  I was asking from a technical standpoint (I.E. shoulder angle in relation to hip angle etc).  What are some characteristics the differentiate as swing that properly shallows the club versus improperly.

Too long to list.

18 hours ago, MattM said:

Finally, in my capacity with the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania I have to look at every question from all angles to properly answer it.....  The post asked, "Why is shallowing early better than shallowing late."  Mvmac and a few others replied with answers about why they thought shallowing early was better than shallowing late.  The problem I saw with the main question is that it is ONE MAJOR GENERALITY that does not delve enough into the specifics to be answered.

Because the specifics are a huge, giant, gaping, yawning rabbit hole from which you may never escape.

18 hours ago, MattM said:

I guess IN GENERAL it's better to shallow early (if you are doing it the right way) than late.

Yes. More than in general, too - almost always it's better to make a move that changes the path of the sweetspot earlier in the downswing than later.

18 hours ago, MattM said:

A more specific question I would ask is whether or not it's better to shallow early by utilizing too much EE, or to shallow late by pushing the arms out?

People don't really shallow early by using EE. EE is used to shallow the shaft later. Nobody really pushes the arms out late to shallow the club, either. It's a non-starter question.

And stop saying "too much EE" because if you're saying "too much" that already has a value judgment on it.