Long Putts & Expectations

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, natureboy said:

No thanks.

Right. Should have expected that. Despite the countless times I've shared my thoughts, insights, knowledge, etc. with you, you continue to bad-mouth me to others, and don't "put up" (video, your own Member Swing thread, etc.) when prompted to. Maybe I'll learn my lesson eventually.

I asked you to visit a SAM because it would provide hard data. Failing that, video showing what you're describing would be helpful. Both are a lot more help - to you, I might add, not to me or anyone else - in knowing more about what we're dealing with than your description of how your putts sound.

8 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Not following. If you don't adjust intents on faster greens with shorter grass won't you launch the ball the same as on a slow green and end up with a ball that launches higher than necessary off the grass surface? Granted that might be an inconsequential difference for my game, but would an expert putter make the adjustment?

I don't adjust much. 1° here or there is not going to require much of an adjustment.

8 minutes ago, natureboy said:

IMO, those lines don't seem to really relate to the actual angles of the shaft, sole, or face (though that's probably closest) but get your point that the relation of delivered loft to AoA is more important. The primary interest I had was that you were delofting some on this putt that appeared to launch a bit lower with low spin relative to the others.

The lines are vertical, so no, they don't relate to the actual angles, they're just vertical, 0° lines for reference (except the one marked line, where I marked the same point on the putter in two spots and drew a line to connect them). Since the putter was not precisely perpendicular to the center of the camera at impact… it's a guess. But the ball launched with no spin and an AoA of about 1°.

8 minutes ago, natureboy said:

That's good to know for the future. When I get consistent enough with contact, I may play with that. For now I'm working on chipping from the fringe to avoid the unpredictable bumps altogether.

That's probably dumb. Unless you're the world's worst putter (or close), or the world's best chipper (or close), you should probably be putting any time you have the chance.

8 minutes ago, natureboy said:

I have no doubt that I'm poor at all three of read, bead, & speed. That doesn't diminish my interest in learning more about good technique or impact. That approach has actually improved my ability to get better consistent roll on the intended line. It's informed my experimentation with macro technique and setup. It's helped me recognize and offset the impact of the extra loft on my putter.

I disagree. I think you focus way, way, way too much on the small stuff, and nowhere near enough on the big stuff.

But hey, what do I know about helping people get better at golf…?

[mvmac]

24 minutes ago, natureboy said:

No thanks.

Why not? If you're interested in the numbers and knowing what you have to improve, getting on SAM is the way to go. Otherwise we're just guessing and you're wasting your time.

[natureboy]

19 minutes ago, iacas said:

Right. Should have expected that. Despite the countless times I've shared my thoughts, insights, knowledge, etc. with you, you continue to bad-mouth me to others, and don't "put up" (video, your own Member Swing thread, etc.) when prompted to. Maybe I'll learn my lesson eventually.

No. I just don't care to invest extra money in either SAM lab or taking video of my putts. I think you took my reaction surprisingly personally.

I currently consider those unimportant investments of my time and money. I'm more interested in picking the brains of more experienced golfers so my understanding increases.

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I don't adjust much. 1° here or there is not going to require much of an adjustment.

Okay. Good to know.

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The lines are vertical, so no, they don't relate to the actual angles, they're just vertical, 0° lines for reference (except the one marked line, where I marked the same point on the putter in two spots and drew a line to connect them). Since the putter was not precisely perpendicular to the center of the camera at impact… it's a guess. But the ball launched with no spin and an AoA of about 1°.

That makes sense.

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That's probably dumb. Unless you're the world's worst putter (or close), or the world's best chipper (or close), you should probably be putting any time you have the chance.

Maybe dumb if trying to maximize score. I'm trying to become a more competent chipper and use every opportunity to practice the skill when it counts. I don't compete in tournaments. If so, I would putt if inside 1-2' or so of the fringe edge. From the HCP perspective of most of the mods, I have no doubt I am very close to the world's worst putter. 

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I disagree. I think you focus way, way, way too much on the small stuff, and nowhere near enough on the big stuff.

You may even be right, but I wouldn't care. My primary reason on this site is to learn things I don't currently know and discover / explore potential blind spots. Even if I focus on something that may not have much value to improved scores, I learn. Being a simple empty vessel for anyone's received wisdom isn't really what I consider learning.

Edited December 30, 2015 by natureboy

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, mvmac said:

Why not? If you're interested in the numbers and knowing what you have to improve, getting on SAM is the way to go. Otherwise we're just guessing and you're wasting your time.

Yup.

[natureboy]

6 minutes ago, mvmac said:

Why not? If you're interested in the numbers and knowing what you have to improve, getting on SAM is the way to go. Otherwise we're just guessing and you're wasting your time.

My OP question has been answered. I just was looking for a confirmation from those in the know that some amount of bounce / skid is unavoidable, but that it should fall in a desirable range of percent of total putt length that can be used as a reasonable rough guess 'check', especially at my lowly level of putting skill.

[colin007]

I guess what people are wondering is, what's the point in acquiring "knowledge" if it's so inconsequential as to make virtually no difference to your skill set? If you want to lower your handicap then focus on read bead and speed. Otherwise, this is all chasing after thin air.

[Ernest Jones]

3 minutes ago, colin007 said:

I guess what people are wondering is, what's the point in acquiring "knowledge" if it's so inconsequential as to make virtually no difference to your skill set? If you want to lower your handicap then focus on read bead and speed. Otherwise, this is all chasing after thin air.

Yep. It's like agonizing over how many wraps you need under your lead hand when you're averaging 2.8 putts per hole. Read, Bead, and Speed. Figure out where you suck the most and work on that until you suck more somewhere else, then work on that. Rinse, repeat.

[iacas]

It's not even that, @colin007 and @Ernest Jones… He wants to know the numbers he should be achieving (whether or not that's important or not for him right now), but then doesn't want to actually go get his own, current numbers to see if he needs to change them or not.

Apparently this thread could have been answered by someone posting:

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Some skidding will occur. Impossible to launch a ball with pure roll. Good numbers are 1-2° loft, 2-3° AoA.

It feels like revisionist history to say that was all he wanted. He had that info, and was still posting, until I said "visit a SAM to get your own numbers if you care that much, or at least film a video so we aren't relying on your description of what "bouncing" your putts are doing."

It'd be like hearing that you want to be +3° AoA with your driver and +11° delivered loft, but then completely guessing at the spin loft you're generating when there's a perfectly easy way to get the actual numbers.

[Phil McGleno]

Not surprising, any of it-@natureboy loves to play his word games and then turn around and talk shit on the people who helped him to others. He has no plans to get better at golf and seems to post here only to try to best some people here-like @iacas and @mvmac.

He is not worth the time or effort you guys give him.-At least we are not discussing Tom Kite pitching the ball anymore.

[iacas]

Okay… Let's endeavor to stick to the topic now, please.

Why wouldn't you visit a SAM to get actual data, or video your putting on this mat so we can "hear" or "see" the "bouncing," @natureboy?

[Ernest Jones]

2 hours ago, natureboy said:

I just don't care to invest extra money in either SAM lab or taking video of my putts.

Got a cell phone? No cost, and you can learn from it.

[iacas]

I missed this response (until now).

2 hours ago, natureboy said:

No. I just don't care to invest extra money in either SAM lab or taking video of my putts. I think you took my reaction surprisingly personally.

That's stupid. Taking video is free. And even if you had to pay for SAM, you're trying to diagnose your own game, and sucking up the time and resources of people here in doing so, but you're not willing to even film yourself putting? The time of others who are trying to help you is worth more than your own time trying to help yourself?

I didn't take it personally. I take almost nothing personally here.

2 hours ago, natureboy said:

I currently consider those unimportant investments of my time and money. I'm more interested in picking the brains of more experienced golfers so my understanding increases.

Then why start the thread?

You're looking for micro bits of understanding, when as a 22 or whatever index you have macro, macro issues that you need to address first. You're doing yourself a disservice, and because others are willing to put in more effort in helping you than you are in helping yourself, you're doing others a great disservice as well.

2 hours ago, natureboy said:

You may even be right, but I wouldn't care. My primary reason on this site is to learn things I don't currently know and discover / explore potential blind spots. Even if I focus on something that may not have much value to improved scores, I learn. Being a simple empty vessel for anyone's received wisdom isn't really what I consider learning.

Here's your blind spot: you focus on small things when you need to focus on the big things.

If you don't care about actually getting better at golf, then consider saying so every time you ask for some bit of minutiae on the swing, or an opinion, or whatever.

As the thread seems to have been answered, I'll close it now, because it's clearly just going to wander farther off topic. PM me if you would like to add something on topic to this discussion.