Fair game suggestions

[RH31]

I would like any suggestions on how you guys who play gaggles/sweeps/team matches, make up fair teams.

My daily group is anywhere from  8 -20 players. Handicaps range from 0-22ish. Most of the players are in the 8-12 handicap range

Currently we play 4 somes, 1 gross best ball + 1 net best ball out of the four per hole, total score for team each nine. Scores are generally pretty close, but we have difficulty making teams when we have one scratch player and the other "A" players aren't good enough. The other problem we have is when a 22 handicapper is getting 10 more shots than the next highest handicapper in the field.

We don't play for much money, I just get sooooo tired of the handicap "discussions" damn near every time we play.

I've suggested Points/Chicago/Stableford and count all 4 balls. I've also suggested just play 2 balls gross out of 4 and give the really high handicappers a few shots a side, instead of a stroke or more per hole.

Any suggestions?

[mdl]

Correct me if I'm wrong other SoCal TSTers, but at our TST tournaments we've played handicapped/net Stableford, either best 2 or best 3 scores out of each foursome for each hole.  That always ended up feeling pretty fair to me.  Though I don't think any of us were so invested that we kept enough track to do (even mental) historical analysis to double check that the winning group was consistently lined up with the group that outhit their handicaps the most.

But if you want to stick with more stock scoring, why not just best two net balls each hole?  Assuming none of your friends sandbag, that should end up fair enough.  You can still try to evenly spread the flights across teams, but the handicapping makes fairness less hard to maintain.  Sure, when everyone's 5-12 plus one 22, the extra variance of the 22 (relative to expected) does mean that player can contribute a ton to the team score on a good day.  But it also means the 22 sometimes will contribute absolutely nothing, which is less of a risk for a better player.

[RH31]

12 minutes ago, mdl said:

Correct me if I'm wrong other SoCal TSTers, but at our TST tournaments we've played handicapped/net Stableford, either best 2 or best 3 scores out of each foursome for each hole.  That always ended up feeling pretty fair to me.  Though I don't think any of us were so invested that we kept enough track to do (even mental) historical analysis to double check that the winning group was consistently lined up with the group that outhit their handicaps the most.

But if you want to stick with more stock scoring, why not just best two net balls each hole?  Assuming none of your friends sandbag, that should end up fair enough.  You can still try to evenly spread the flights across teams, but the handicapping makes fairness less hard to maintain.  Sure, when everyone's 5-12 plus one 22, the extra variance of the 22 (relative to expected) does mean that player can contribute a ton to the team score on a good day.  But it also means the 22 sometimes will contribute absolutely nothing, which is less of a risk for a better player.

 The sandbagging issue is part of the constant griping.

[No Mulligans]

11 minutes ago, mdl said:

Correct me if I'm wrong other SoCal TSTers, but at our TST tournaments we've played handicapped/net Stableford, either best 2 or best 3 scores out of each foursome for each hole.  That always ended up feeling pretty fair to me.  Though I don't think any of us were so invested that we kept enough track to do (even mental) historical analysis to double check that the winning group was consistently lined up with the group that outhit their handicaps the most.

At the last SoCal Tst outing we played in teams of two (two teams per foursome).  We played handicapped Stableford using both players points.  We adjusted our course handicaps by 80%, mine looked like this:

17.8 * 134/113 * 80% = 17

I believe it was @mvmac who came up with this.  It seemed to work well.  (The 80% makes sense to me as the higher handicaps would have an advantage without it because Stableford does not penalize one as much for blow-up holes).

 

[mdl]

5 minutes ago, RH31 said:

 The sandbagging issue is part of the constant griping.

Well if the group isn't trustworthy with their handicaps, then there's no way to make it fair.  Going Stableford or shifting types/number of scores on each hole that are counted or whatever still isn't fair if there are big sandbaggers involved.

[Big C]

4 minutes ago, mdl said:

Well if the group isn't trustworthy with their handicaps, then there's no way to make it fair. 

Very True.

[Papa Steve 55]

we will sometimes play best two of four, one gross one net, but all net birdies count. This lets some of the higher handicapper's help. It also helps when there is a large gap between A players. You might have to take a lot of bogeys for your gross ball but if a couple guys can throw in a par with a stroke it will help offset it.

[mvmac]

4 hours ago, No Mulligans said:

I believe it was @mvmac who came up with this.

Yeah I've played in a lot of handicap tournaments where taking 80% was standard. I don't remember if I suggested it, probably just came about through discussions with the other guys and @iacas.

[chilepepper]

I play in a regular group each week. Handicaps for this group are established only through games played in the group. No outside handicaps, no Ghin  numbers,5 games minimum to establish a cap. Strict rules, play it down, no gimmies. Sandbagging isn't an issue as everyone is being watched by everyone else, group make up varies. It's a little more paper work for someone to figure the caps on a regular basis but it's a pretty drama free group the way it's run

Edited May 5, 2016 by chilepepper

[WUTiger]

I play in the Senior group at my club. With seniors, you get lots of variation in score on how a player feels on a given day.

We had one guy who has a 20 HDCP. In late June, he was having back spasms and shot 102. In early July, after some rest and a visit to the chiropractor, he shot an 87. I would suggest that seniors may have more variation from round to round than the young guys, because us seniors have more glitch days than the young 40-somethings.

As Mick Jagger warns us, "What a Drag It Is Getting Old..." (you have to survive the commercial)

 

[RH31]

12 hours ago, mdl said:

Well if the group isn't trustworthy with their handicaps, then there's no way to make it fair.  Going Stableford or shifting types/number of scores on each hole that are counted or whatever still isn't fair if there are big sandbaggers involved.

It's an issue, but not the biggest issue. The hardest part is when we have a zero handicap as the top A player, and a 7-8 handicap as the bottom a player. When that happens the gross ball gets skewed to the low guys team.

Yesterday, we had a 22 who was 10 shots higher than anyone else making net birdies and net eagles skewing the net ball.

It's been suggested in the past that we should try only allowing our net strokes to get back to par. No more net birdies or eagles.

Thanks for all the suggestions.