+1 penalty for OBs and lost balls?

[Abu3baid]

2 hours ago, Lihu said:

Yeah, or worst hole score. At the point you can't find your ball off the tee, it's likely an ESC.

Also, a lost ball is different from OB. If you play a provisional assuming an OB then can't find your ball you need to retake the shot. Lost balls are also different than OB. OB is only when you or you partners know for sure that it landed OB.

"Unplayable" is yet another one of those that you would need to play distance again.

In short, you can't just arbitrarily drop balls for distance penalties.

How is a lost ball different from OB?

I hit my ball in the woods I don't think I'm going to find it, or believe it might be difficult to find so I tee up a provisional.

I hit the ball in the general area where it could possibly be OB so I take a provisional.

I hit the ball in the woods where there is also OB so I take provisional just in case I can't find it or it had gone OB.

I view all of these as similar situations, why did you differentiate between them? Why does it matter if it went OB and I can't find it?  

[Lihu]

9 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

How is a lost ball different from OB?

I hit my ball in the woods I don't think I'm going to find it, or believe it might be difficult to find so I tee up a provisional.

I hit the ball in the general area where it could possibly be OB so I take a provisional.

I hit the ball in the woods where there is also OB so I take provisional just in case I can't find it or it had gone OB.

I view all of these as similar situations, why did you differentiate between them? Why does it matter if it went OB and I can't find it?  

Lost ball is potentially different because it could even be in bounds, but is just lost. You don't know ahead of time that it's lost.

OB is usually agreed upon as OB either through witnessing the flight and it goes OB, or seeing it land in a parking lot or something like that. You can hit a provisional then play that.

Same with unplayable, it's usually something you need to look at before making the decision.

[Abu3baid]

2 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Lost ball is potentially different because it could even be in bounds, but is just lost. You don't know ahead of time that it's lost.

OB is usually agreed upon as OB either through witnessing the flight and it goes OB, or seeing it land in a parking lot or something like that. You can hit a provisional then play that.

Not necessarily.. I can hit a ball into the woods as I mentioned and it could be either lost or OB or both..  Why do I have to tee the ball up again after I had already hit a provisional?

[Lihu]

9 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

Not necessarily.. I can hit a ball into the woods as I mentioned and it could be either lost or OB or both..  Why do I have to tee the ball up again after I had already hit a provisional?

You can, but it's not necessarily the case. It's different. Also, woods are not always OB either. Why be hitting your 3rd when you might find the ball in the woods? There's all kinds of rules about provisional balls too that might make it unattractive to use it or if you find the original in a more favorable position and it's too late to use the original because the provisional is in so and so position or whatever.

Also, unplayable is another case where you need to go back for stroke and distance penalties.

No matter what, distance does not equal a 2 stroke penalty.

[Abu3baid]

2 minutes ago, Lihu said:

You can, but it's not necessarily the case. It's different. Also, woods are not always OB either. Why hit 3 when you might find the ball in the woods? There's all kinds of rules about provisional balls too that might make it unattractive to use it or if you find the original in a more favorable position and it's too late to use the original because the provisional is in so and so position or whatever.

Also, unplayable is another case where you need to go back for stroke and distance penalties.

No matter what, distance does not equal a 2 stroke penalty.

Something isn't adding up my friend.

First let us stick to the first point.. You said that the rule is different for when the ball is OB vs when it is lost.  I contend that I don't see a difference.  When I believe my ball is lost I play a provisional and when I believe it is OB I play a provisional.. Is it a rule that I have to watch it sail OB or even be virtually certain that it went OB?  

Now the second point you introduced.. Who said that I have to take stroke and distance for an unplayable?  I'm pretty sure there are 3 options.. I can play it as it is, I can take a drop 2 club lengths with a 1 stroke penalty, or I can replay from the old spot with a stroke penalty.  I'm pretty sure there is nothing in the rules about forcing me to replay from the previous spot.  Unless the rules changed.

 

[Lihu]

8 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

Something isn't adding up my friend.

First let us stick to the first point.. You said that the rule is different for when the ball is OB vs when it is lost.  I contend that I don't see a difference.  

Your math, apparently.

 

Quote

When I believe my ball is lost I play a provisional and when I believe it is OB I play a provisional.. Is it a rule that I have to watch it sail OB or even be virtually certain that it went OB?  

Now the second point you introduced.. Who said that I have to take stroke and distance for an unplayable?  I'm pretty sure there are 3 options.. I can play it as it is, I can take a drop 2 club lengths with a 1 stroke penalty, or I can replay from the old spot with a stroke penalty.  I'm pretty sure there is nothing in the rules about forcing me to replay from the previous spot.  Unless the rules changed.

There are times when you don't know this for a fact and it is likely in bounds. You could play a provisional, but it is not necessary. The odds of finding it are generally in your favor for an in bound lost ball. It could potentially be lost in deep rough, leaves or whatever. . .

When you can't find it either go back and play it again when 5 minutes is up, or don't finish the hole and take either ESC or worst hole score.

 

[Lihu]

45 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

53 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Also, unplayable is another case where you need to go back for stroke and distance penalties.

No matter what, distance does not equal a 2 stroke penalty.

Now the second point you introduced.. Who said that I have to take stroke and distance for an unplayable?  I'm pretty sure there are 3 options.. I can play it as it is, I can take a drop 2 club lengths with a 1 stroke penalty, or I can replay from the old spot with a stroke penalty.  I'm pretty sure there is nothing in the rules about forcing me to replay from the previous spot.  Unless the rules changed.

The third option is:

Quote

Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or

Right, I did not mean to imply that you have to. What I meant to say is it's another case where you take stroke and distance. However, you're right there are other options.

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-28

 

[Braivo]

17 hours ago, krupa said:

I don't know why but I really hate doing this.  I do it, but I hate it. So when it happens I stop keeping score and I don't publish my GG round publicly or include the holes I already played in my GG stats.  If the Android app had a "don't upload" button, I would use it.

I hate doing it as well. 

The fact is we are usually playing a recreational game, non-competitively, on a busy course. Re-teeing is not practical for pace of play purposes. Therefore, if I cannot find my ball I drop somewhere near where I think it should've been and take a +2 penalty. It makes a lot of assumptions about where my third shot from the tee would end up, but that's the best solution given the situation. It doesn't matter all that much. 

[krupa]

4 minutes ago, Braivo said:

I hate doing it as well. 

The fact is we are usually playing a recreational game, non-competitively, on a busy course. Re-teeing is not practical for pace of play purposes. Therefore, if I cannot find my ball I drop somewhere near where I think it should've been and take a +2 penalty. It makes a lot of assumptions about where my third shot from the tee would end up, but that's the best solution given the situation. It doesn't matter all that much. 

It matters a lot to me.  I can't feel good about a low score if I know I broke the rules getting it.  

[Braivo]

2 minutes ago, krupa said:

It matters a lot to me.  I can't feel good about a low score if I know I broke the rules getting it.  

I agree, but I have to let it go, I just don't see a better solution. 

[Lihu]

33 minutes ago, krupa said:

It matters a lot to me.  I can't feel good about a low score if I know I broke the rules getting it.  

You don't have to cancel an entire round just because you played one hole not by the rules. Take a look at.this.

To be honest, +2 is possibly close in most cases, but it's not the same thing.

35 minutes ago, Braivo said:

I agree, but I have to let it go, I just don't see a better solution. 

 

[Grinde6]

14 hours ago, Lihu said:

Your math, apparently.

 

There are times when you don't know this for a fact and it is likely in bounds. You could play a provisional, but it is not necessary. The odds of finding it are generally in your favor for an in bound lost ball. It could potentially be lost in deep rough, leaves or whatever. . .

When you can't find it either go back and play it again when 5 minutes is up, or don't finish the hole and take either ESC or worst hole score.

 

This isn't making sense to me either.  If I hit a ball and it is likely to be out of bounds, whether we see it go out of bounds or not, I am hitting a provisional ball as I think most people that follow the rules would as that is why the provisional ball rule is there as well as to speed up play.  If I hit a ball into what I know is some thick rough and balls are hard to find in there, I am hitting a provisional ball again because that is why that rule is there, and also to speed up play so I don't have to go all the way back to the tee.  Your making it sound like if you hit a provisional ball you have to play the provisional ball...???

 

14 hours ago, Lihu said:

You can, but it's not necessarily the case. It's different. Also, woods are not always OB either. Why be hitting your 3rd when you might find the ball in the woods? There's all kinds of rules about provisional balls too that might make it unattractive to use it or if you find the original in a more favorable position and it's too late to use the original because the provisional is in so and so position or whatever.

Also, unplayable is another case where you need to go back for stroke and distance penalties.

No matter what, distance does not equal a 2 stroke penalty.

You say "Why be hitting your 3rd when you might find your ball in the woods"  your only hitting your 3rd if you do not find your ball in the woods.  If you find your ball in the woods, and it is not marked as OB, then you either hit your original ball, or proceed under a different set of rules. 

"There's all kinds of rules about provisional balls too that might make it unattractive to use it or if you find the original in a more favorable position and it's too late to use the original because the provisional is in so and so position or whatever."  There are no rules about provisional balls that make it unattractive to use...it is there to help the player.  If you find the original ball before playing the provisional ball from a further position, then you can play your original ball....

Unplayable is not necessarily a stroke and distance penalty...

[Lihu]

1 minute ago, Grinde6 said:

This isn't making sense to me either.  If I hit a ball and it is likely to be out of bounds, whether we see it go out of bounds or not, I am hitting a provisional ball as I think most people that follow the rules would as that is why the provisional ball rule is there as well as to speed up play.  If I hit a ball into what I know is some thick rough and balls are hard to find in there, I am hitting a provisional ball again because that is why that rule is there, and also to speed up play so I don't have to go all the way back to the tee.  Your making it sound like if you hit a provisional ball you have to play the provisional ball...???

 

You say "Why be hitting your 3rd when you might find your ball in the woods"  your only hitting your 3rd if you do not find your ball in the woods.  If you find your ball in the woods, and it is not marked as OB, then you either hit your original ball, or proceed under a different set of rules. 

"There's all kinds of rules about provisional balls too that might make it unattractive to use it or if you find the original in a more favorable position and it's too late to use the original because the provisional is in so and so position or whatever."  There are no rules about provisional balls that make it unattractive to use...it is there to help the player.  If you find the original ball before playing the provisional ball from a further position, then you can play your original ball....

Unplayable is not necessarily a stroke and distance penalty...

I already corrected myself in a subsequent post.

However, my original statement was that lost ball, unplayable and OB are all different. That's all I was stating. Abu turned it into a semantics issue

[Grinde6]

9 minutes ago, Lihu said:

I already corrected myself in a subsequent post.

However, my original statement was that lost ball, unplayable and OB are all different. That's all I was stating. Abu turned it into a semantics issue

I guess all I see is that you said:

"There are times when you don't know this for a fact and it is likely in bounds. You could play a provisional, but it is not necessary. The odds of finding it are generally in your favor for an in bound lost ball. It could potentially be lost in deep rough, leaves or whatever. . ."

I would say that if there is a chance that it might be OB or lost in some thick rough, a provisional (for the sake of pace of play, and playing by the rules) is necessary....like I said before, that is what the rule is there for, if you hit a provisional and end up finding your original, pick up the provisional and play your original, if not, play the provisional and save time.

"When you can't find it either go back and play it again when 5 minutes is up, or don't finish the hole and take either ESC or worst hole score."

This not only takes time, slows the pace of play, and would probably make the people waiting on the tee box a little agitated, but is completely unnecessary when you can hit a provisional ball just to be safe.

I'm just trying to be sure you are understanding that even if you play a provisional ball off the tee, you don't have to use the provisional ball...its there for pace of play sake and its a rule to help the player out...one of the few rules that do.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Grinde6
misspelling

[sirhacksalot]

I am still learning the rules as it comes to this.  Local course "rules" is +1 where it went out, lost, etc., but they also play perferred lie within a club length, ready golf, and so on.

[krupa]

42 minutes ago, Lihu said:

You don't have to cancel an entire round just because you played one hole not by the rules. Take a look at.this.

To be honest, +2 is possibly close in most cases, but it's not the same thing.

 

Thanks but I don't have a handicap or understand how they work during a round.  I don't mind too much if I throw out a round, score-wise.  If I didn't have Game Golf, I probably wouldn't score any round anyway. 

[Fourputt]

All right, this has gotten very confused and there were statements made that are just plain wrong.  

If there is a possibility that a player's ball might be out of bounds after a stroke, or that it may be lost on the course outside of a water hazard, then the player may (and should) play a provisional ball.  Doing so is not an additional stroke until that provisional ball becomes the ball in play.  The provisional ball only becomes the ball in play if the original ball is not found, or if it is found out of bounds.  

If the player discovers upon arriving at the spot that the original ball could only be lost in an unforeseen water hazard because there is no other other place for it to be but fairway, then he may proceed under rule 26-1 and the provisional ball is abandoned.

If the original ball is found on the course in bounds, no matter what the lie, it is still the ball in play, lying one (assuming it was played from the tee).  The provisional ball is no longer a factor in the play of that hole.  It is abandoned and the player continues with the original ball.  If the original ball is not playable from its current lie, that is a new and separate situation which has nothing to do with the provisional ball.

Strokes made with the provisional ball only count for score if it becomes the ball in play.

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, Grinde6 said:

I guess all I see is that you said:

"There are times when you don't know this for a fact and it is likely in bounds. You could play a provisional, but it is not necessary. The odds of finding it are generally in your favor for an in bound lost ball. It could potentially be lost in deep rough, leaves or whatever. . ."

I would say that if there is a chance that it might be OB or lost in some thick rough, a provisional (for the sake of pace of play, and playing by the rules) is necessary....like I said before, that is what the rule is there for, if you hit a provisional and end up finding your original, pick up the provisional and play your original, if not, play the provisional and save time.

"When you can't find it either go back and play it again when 5 minutes is up, or don't finish the hole and take either ESC or worst hole score."

This not only takes time, slows the pace of play, and would probably make the people waiting on the tee box a little agitated, but is completely unnecessary when you can hit a provisional ball just to be safe.

I'm just trying to be sure you are understanding that even if you play a provisional ball off the tee, you don't have to use the provisional ball...its there for pace of play sake and its a rule to help the player out...one of the few rules that do.

Okay, I have no idea what you are trying to state, but @Fourputt pretty much answered the way I understand the rules even if I might have misstated something. More than likely I misstated, but I'm not going back to review it now.

 

 

EDIT: Actually, I agree with using a provisional to speed up play.