Lost ball -- probably played by another

[tdiii]

I'm playing a match the other night.  I pull hook my iron off the tee.  We get down to the adjacent fairway (the hole goes the opposite direction) and find 2 balls in the light rough, neither of which is mine.  There is a group on the green.  We scour the rough between the two fairways to no avail.  We ask the players playing the other hole if they have might have hit the wrong ball.  They sort of ignore us and don't engage but then claim they all have their own balls.  My ball remains MIA. My opponent and his partner both say they think the other group is lying because one of them probably hit my ball and doesn't want to fess up and take the 2 shot penalty in their match (the other group is playing a match as well). 

I decide to take the cautious approach and drive back to the tee to re-hit (where I busted a 304 yard drive per Game Golf!).  I take a 6 on the hole and lose it to my opponent.

Given the evidence, and my opponents' statements that they think the other team hit my ball, could I have dropped where we thought my ball was and played from there?

[Golfingdad]

No, your only option was the one you took (short of actually wrestling the guys in the other group to get a peek at your ball :)).  

In casual rounds on that type of course (adjacent fairways, light rough) I would just drop and play on, but in a competition you are, unfortunately, stuck with replaying from the tee.

[Big C]

Unfortunately, no. Your only option was to re-tee as you did. Had you been able to identify that your ball was truly picked up by the adjacent group (ie. if one of them had fessed up), you would have been able to drop without penalty. Short of an affirmative ID, you have no recourse. 

The same thing happened to me in a match last year. I pushed my drive right, into the light rough between two holes. I have played that hole at least 50 times, and so based on course knowledge, the ball flight, and where I saw it bounce, I knew precisely where I would find the ball. While the rest of my group was teeing off, I see a player from the opposing fairway walk up to almost exactly that spot. He peered down for a second, looked around and eventually played the ball. Immediately I got a bad feeling about it. Sure enough, by the time I was able to reach the spot a few minutes later, my ball was nowhere to be found. If I could have put a percentage estimate on it, I would have said it's about 95% certain that the other group played my ball. But when it comes to this particular rule, 95% isn't good enough.

I'll edit to add that this is one of the best arguments for playing balls like Kick-X, Snell, etc. Guys can still steal your ball if the want, but the honest mistakes mostly go away.

[Jeremie Boop]

1 minute ago, Golfingdad said:

No, your only option was the one you took (short of actually wrestling the guys in the other group to get a peek at your ball :)).  

In casual rounds on that type of course (adjacent fairways, light rough) I would just drop and play on, but in a competition you are, unfortunately, stuck with replaying from the tee.

Is it the only option, there isn't the option of "virtual certainty" that an outside agency took the ball? I mean, I've twice watched someone pick up my ball and then claim they didn't do it. So I dropped in the general area where it should have been and played out with no penalty. That's what I was told to do the first time it happened. Or, is the key here that I actually saw the person pick up my ball?

[Big C]

1 minute ago, Jeremie Boop said:

Is it the only option, there isn't the option of "virtual certainty" that an outside agency took the ball? I mean, I've twice watched someone pick up my ball and then claim they didn't do it. So I dropped in the general area where it should have been and played out with no penalty. That's what I was told to do the first time it happened. Or, is the key here that I actually saw the person pick up my ball?

If you literally see the ball from tee to landing, and then see another golfer (or bird, animal, etc.) abscond with that exact ball, then yes you could drop without penalty. But that is not the case in the scenario that the OP described, nor in my scenario.

[tdiii]

Further facts:  We did not see my ball come to rest, so did not affirmatively see someone else hit my ball.  Just in case that was not crystal clear. I hadn't bothered to hit a provisional because the ball was hit to an area where one would always find it.

Wrestling the guys on the green was an option, but I'm a lover not a fighter. 

[Yes, if I'm playing a match among my buddies, I think we would all allow a drop without penalty even if money was on the line.]

Edited June 23, 2016 by tdiii

[Golfingdad]

7 minutes ago, Jeremie Boop said:

Is it the only option, there isn't the option of "virtual certainty" that an outside agency took the ball? I mean, I've twice watched someone pick up my ball and then claim they didn't do it. So I dropped in the general area where it should have been and played out with no penalty. That's what I was told to do the first time it happened. Or, is the key here that I actually saw the person pick up my ball?

Hmm, good question.  I don't think so, because of the times I've seen a situation in the pros where it is "known" that the ball went into a tree but the guy still has to figure out a way to identify it.  For reasons of practicality (i.e. The lack of scuba gear) the virtual certainty rule applies to water hazards, but I'm not certain how it applies outside of them.

[Big C]

Here is what rule 18-1 says

If a ball at rest is moved by an outside agency, there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced.
Note: It is a question of fact whether a ball has been moved by an outside agency. In order to apply this Rule, it must be known or virtually certain that an outside agency has moved the ball. In the absence of such knowledge or certainty, the player must play the ball as it lies or, if the ball is not found, proceed under Rule 27-1.

 

[Jeremie Boop]

9 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Hmm, good question.  I don't think so, because of the times I've seen a situation in the pros where it is "known" that the ball went into a tree but the guy still has to figure out a way to identify it.  For reasons of practicality (i.e. The lack of scuba gear) the virtual certainty rule applies to water hazards, but I'm not certain how it applies outside of them.

12 minutes ago, Big C said:

If you literally see the ball from tee to landing, and then see another golfer (or bird, animal, etc.) abscond with that exact ball, then yes you could drop without penalty. But that is not the case in the scenario that the OP described, nor in my scenario.

I was doing a little searching and did see that "virtual certainty" is applicable to a ball that was moved by an outside agency:

Quote

The same principles would apply for a ball that may have been moved by an outside agency (Rule 18-1) or a ball that has not been found and may be in an obstruction (Rule 24-3) or an abnormal ground condition (Rule 25-1c).  (Revised)

 

I don't necessarily know if it requires you to actually see the ball from tee to landing though, especially if you have a very good idea of where the ball should be as in the OP case where there was another ball which is not yours in very close proximity to where your ball should have been. The most recent case for me I did not see the ball down, but knew from the ball flight and distance it traveled that it would be on the left side of the fairway or just off. Upon pulling up to a playing partner's ball I saw a ball basically exactly where I expected mine to be and watched the person stop and pick it up then put it in his pocket. Both myself the guy I was riding with agreed that would have been where my ball was. Given that, I dropped right where we saw him pick up the ball and played out. I think, depending on the situation it's probably acceptable to use "virtual certainty" in cases where you didn't see the ball land or the other player pick up/play your ball.

Edited June 23, 2016 by Jeremie Boop

[tdiii]

10 minutes ago, Big C said:

Here is what rule 18-1 says

If a ball at rest is moved by an outside agency, there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced.
Note: It is a question of fact whether a ball has been moved by an outside agency. In order to apply this Rule, it must be known or virtually certain that an outside agency has moved the ball. In the absence of such knowledge or certainty, the player must play the ball as it lies or, if the ball is not found, proceed under Rule 27-1.

 

"Virtual certainty". . . It certainly wasn't known, because the place the ball should have ended up is blind from the tee.  By the time we teed off and got down there, the group playing the other hole was hitting from the rough and the other balls were still visible, so we didn't even bother to ask.  Only after they hit and we inspected the area and couldn't fine my ball did we ask them and they were on their green putting. 

I'm not sure what "virtual" certainty is but it, in theory, my ball could have disappeared down a hole or just taken a funny hop and we never saw it, so I think I played it right. 

I actually think it cuts against me a bit that there were 2 balls down there after the other guys hit.  Presumably they saw multiple balls down there and were more careful about identifying. When I get to an area with just one ball, I can get lazy about identifying.  When I find 2 or 3 balls then I'm going to be extra careful. 

Edited June 23, 2016 by tdiii

[Big C]

Just now, Jeremie Boop said:

The most recent case for me I did not see the ball down, but knew from the ball flight and distance it traveled that it would be on the left side of the fairway or just off. Upon pulling up to a playing partner's ball I saw a ball basically exactly where I expected mine to be and watched the person stop and pick it up then put it in his pocket. Both myself the guy I was riding with agreed that would have been where my ball was. Given that I dropped right where we saw him pick up the ball and played out. I think, depending on the situation it's probably acceptable to use "virtual certainty" in cases where you didn't see the ball land or the other player pick up/play your ball.

There are a few rules officials on this site and it would probably be best if they weighed in on this. In the situation you describe above, there might be more factors at play. Were there any sprinkler heads on your line of flight? How deep was the rough? If, for instance, your ball could have hit a sprinkler and bounced left into deep rough, a rules committee may have ruled against allowing a free drop. I tend to use affirmative ID as the threshold because - beyond that - everyone's idea of "pretty sure" can be different and it gets to be an awfully slippery slope.

[Golfingdad]

6 minutes ago, Jeremie Boop said:

I was doing a little searching and did see that "virtual certainty" is applicable to a ball that was moved by an outside agency:

 

I don't necessarily know if it requires you to actually see the ball from tee to landing though, especially if you have a very good idea of where the ball should be as in the OP case where there was another ball which is not yours in very close proximity to where your ball should have been. The most recent case for me I did not see the ball down, but knew from the ball flight and distance it traveled that it would be on the left side of the fairway or just off. Upon pulling up to a playing partner's ball I saw a ball basically exactly where I expected mine to be and watched the person stop and pick it up then put it in his pocket. Both myself the guy I was riding with agreed that would have been where my ball was. Given that, I dropped right where we saw him pick up the ball and played out. I think, depending on the situation it's probably acceptable to use "virtual certainty" in cases where you didn't see the ball land or the other player pick up/play your ball.

Outside of a tournament I totally agree.  But I'd be cautious of how virtual certainty applies in this case where you didn't see the ball land.

( @Big C, I'm thinking of #17 Players a few weeks ago)

Even though we "knew" where the ball should have been, I feel like not seeing the ball land takes away the "virtual" part because it could have hit a sprinkler head or plugged in a small muddy patch or in a bunker or hit the top of a 1" square cross section 100 yard marker pole ;), or any of a number of fairly unlikely things besides the outside agency.

[Jeremie Boop]

14 minutes ago, Big C said:

There are a few rules officials on this site and it would probably be best if they weighed in on this. In the situation you describe above, there might be more factors at play. Were there any sprinkler heads on your line of flight? How deep was the rough? If, for instance, your ball could have hit a sprinkler and bounced left into deep rough, a rules committee may have ruled against allowing a free drop. I tend to use affirmative ID as the threshold because - beyond that - everyone's idea of "pretty sure" can be different and it gets to be an awfully slippery slope.

 

8 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Outside of a tournament I totally agree.  But I'd be cautious of how virtual certainty applies in this case where you didn't see the ball land.

( @Big C, I'm thinking of #17 Players a few weeks ago)

Even though we "knew" where the ball should have been, I feel like not seeing the ball land takes away the "virtual" part because it could have hit a sprinkler head or plugged in a small muddy patch or in a bunker or hit the top of a 1" square cross section 100 yard marker pole ;), or any of a number of fairly unlikely things besides the outside agency.

I understand the idea of perhaps a sprinkler head or something causing a crazy bounce, but for my case there weren't any sprinkler heads in the area to land on, and in the case of the OP I don't know of any sprinkler heads that are located in the rough.

Also, of course in the event that I was playing in a competition I would consult with a rules official. From what I read in the "virtual certainty" rule it doesn't require you to see the ball land. I'm pretty picky about what I call virtual certain, I'm not going to say "yeah that might have been close to where my ball maybe could have come close to landing". If I say I'm "virtually certain" it's because I'm about as positive as I can be without physically seeing my ball. Though I understand that it's something people could easily try to take advantage of.

[Martyn W]

59 minutes ago, Big C said:

If I could have put a percentage estimate on it, I would have said it's about 95% certain that the other group played my ball. But when it comes to this particular rule, 95% isn't good enough.

I think most Rules Officials would disagree - the standard is KVC (knowledge or virtual certainty); 95% is virtually certain.

[Big C]

18 minutes ago, Martyn W said:

I think most Rules Officials would disagree - the standard is KVC (knowledge or virtual certainty); 95% is virtually certain.

Really? I am far from a rules expert, but I'm a bit surprised to hear that. My understanding of KVC was that it had to be closer to 99.9% - in other words there is no other plausible explanation. Allowing a drop, even if there is a 1 in 20 chance that my ball buried in soft patch somewhere seems a bit generous. 

 

55 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

 

( @Big C, I'm thinking of #17 Players a few weeks ago)

 

Yes that situation ran through my head when I was reading the thread. The good news is that it taught me to NEVER play unmarked Pro V-1's ever again.

[Martyn W]

6 minutes ago, Big C said:

Really? I am far from a rules expert, but I'm a bit surprised to hear that. My understanding of KVC was that it had to be closer to 99.9% - in other words there is no other plausible explanation.

There is definitely a bit of gray here, while not putting a number on it, the closest the USGA come is in 26-1/1:

in part - "

Unlike "knowledge," "virtual certainty" implies some small degree of doubt about the actual location of a ball that has not been found. However, "virtual certainty" also means that, although the ball has not been found, when all readily available information is considered, the conclusion that there is nowhere that the ball could be except in the water hazard would be justified.

In determining whether "virtual certainty" exists, some of the relevant factors in the area of the water hazard to be considered include topography, turf conditions, grass heights, visibility, weather conditions and the proximity of trees, bushes and abnormal ground conditions.

The same principles would apply for a ball that may have been moved by an outside agency (Rule 18-1) 

So what is 'some small degree'? I (and others) would say up to 5%; others may put it at1 or 2%

[Jeremie Boop]

2 minutes ago, Martyn W said:

There is definitely a bit of gray here, while not putting a number on it, the closest the USGA come is in 26-1/1:

in part - "

Unlike "knowledge," "virtual certainty" implies some small degree of doubt about the actual location of a ball that has not been found. However, "virtual certainty" also means that, although the ball has not been found, when all readily available information is considered, the conclusion that there is nowhere that the ball could be except in the water hazard would be justified.

In determining whether "virtual certainty" exists, some of the relevant factors in the area of the water hazard to be considered include topography, turf conditions, grass heights, visibility, weather conditions and the proximity of trees, bushes and abnormal ground conditions.

The same principles would apply for a ball that may have been moved by an outside agency (Rule 18-1) 

So what is 'some small degree'? I (and others) would say up to 5%; others may put it at1 or 2%

I have a feeling you have to take into account the surrounding area of where the ball should be, if there are bushes/rocks/sprinkler heads/trees/etc that could reasonably have caused the ball to end up somewhere other than the expected spot then you can no longer be reasonable certain. However, if it's a wide open area type situation, as well as in the OP situation where there is a ball that is not yours in that location it's  very reasonable to assume that one of the other players hit your ball.

[pumaAttack]

Just drop one and play on.  Too many silly rules that don't apply fairly to all golfers.