Knock a leaf off penalty?

[Slowcelica]

So I was watching a golf tournament a few weeks ago, and a golfer had hit under neath a tree that had fairly low limbs. Say maybe 5 or 6 feet, anwyay he was taking practice swings to chip out onto the green. One of the announces said that he needed to be careful with his practice swings because if he knocked a leaf off that was a penalty stroke, but just in his practice swings. 

Is this an actual rule? If so I think that is a little ridiculous, I can see it if a branch or something but come on a leaf?

[Jeremie Boop]

I didn't think it was as picky as to include leaves, but I know that you can't break branches or anything.

[Fourputt]

1 hour ago, Slowcelica said:

So I was watching a golf tournament a few weeks ago, and a golfer had hit under neath a tree that had fairly low limbs. Say maybe 5 or 6 feet, anwyay he was taking practice swings to chip out onto the green. One of the announces said that he needed to be careful with his practice swings because if he knocked a leaf off that was a penalty stroke, but just in his practice swings. 

Is this an actual rule? If so I think that is a little ridiculous, I can see it if a branch or something but come on a leaf?

If he does anything that improves the area of his intended swing, including knocking off a leaf, he incurs a 2 stroke penalty.  If he knocks a leaf off that isn't in the area of his swing, then no penalty.  

You should be careful when standing over your ball and testing the clearance for your backswing in such a situation, because that is the most likely time when you will cross the line on this rule.

[David in FL]

25 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

If he does anything that improves the area of his intended swing, including knocking off a leaf, he incurs a 2 stroke penalty.  If he knocks a leaf off that isn't in the area of his swing, then no penalty.  

You should be careful when standing over your ball and testing the clearance for your backswing in such a situation, because that is the most likely time when you will cross the line on this rule.

All true.

It's worth mentioning however, that the simple act of knocking off a leaf or even a few doesn't necessarily result in a penalty.  If there are still so many leaves or branches remaining that the area of intended swing hasn't been materially affected, there is no penalty.  The key component, as @Fourputt mentions, is whether or not the intended area of swing was actually improved. 

Decision 13-2/0.5 for those that are interested.

[Abu3baid]

4 minutes ago, David in FL said:

All true.

It's worth mentioning however, that the simple act of knocking off a leaf or even a few doesn't necessarily result in a penalty.  If there are still so many leaves or branches remaining that the area of intended swing hasn't been materially affected, there is no penalty.  The key component, as @Fourputt mentions, is whether or not the intended area of swing was actually improved. 

Decision 13-2/0.5 for those that are interested.

Good to know.  It never did make sense that one leaf being knocked out is a penalty..  Unless someone really believes that it improved the intended swing area?

[Fourputt]

29 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

Good to know.  It never did make sense that one leaf being knocked out is a penalty..  Unless someone really believes that it improved the intended swing area?

If there are only 2 leaves in your swing path and you knock one off, then you have, in effect, breached the rule, even if you don't think that one leaf would affect your swing.  Not really any different from a case where you swing over your ball in the rough, clipping the tops off a few blades of grass or weeds.  You haven't actually changed your lie, but you have potentially improved your situation by removing something growing that was on the path of your swing, and that is going to be ruled a breach in 99 out of 100 instances.

[Abu3baid]

2 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

If there are only 2 leaves in your swing path and you knock one off, then you have, in effect, breached the rule, even if you don't think that one leaf would affect your swing.  Not really any different from a case where you swing over your ball in the rough, clipping the tops off a few blades of grass or weeds.  You haven't actually changed your lie, but you have potentially improved your situation by removing something growing that was on the path of your swing, and that is going to be ruled a breach in 99 out of 100 instances.

fine we are in agreement.. If there are a lot of leaves a few don't matter, if there a few leaves then 1 will matter.  Got it.

here is an excerpt I just read with the exception mentioned below it.  Which confirms what David mentioned.

Quote

The determination as to whether a player has gained a potential advantage from his actions is made by reference to the situation immediately prior to his stroke. If there is a reasonable possibility that the player's action has created a potential advantage, the player is in breach of Rule 13-2.

Quote

• If a player accidentally knocks down several leaves from a tree in his area of intended swing with a practice swing, but there are still so many leaves or branches remaining that the area of intended swing has not been materially affected; or

 

[Slowcelica]

Yea that makes more sense than what they said on the broadcast. It was simply if he knocks down a leaf its a penalty. At least it leaves some room for common sense, there were a ton of leaves above around him so I dont think if hey knocked one off it would have changed his actual swing at all.

[Rulesman]

The converse of the decision quoted above is:

Examples of changes that are likely to create such a potential advantage are if a player:

accidentally knocks down a single leaf from a tree in his area of intended swing with a practice swing, but, as this was one of very few leaves that might either interfere with his swing or fall and thereby distract him, the area of intended swing has been materially affected; or

[Abu3baid]

2 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

The converse of the decision quoted above is:

Examples of changes that are likely to create such a potential advantage are if a player:

accidentally knocks down a single leaf from a tree in his area of intended swing with a practice swing, but, as this was one of very few leaves that might either interfere with his swing or fall and thereby distract him, the area of intended swing has been materially affected; or

Yeah it is, and after contemplating it I'm not sure if this equitable.. At what point is it considered to be a lot of leaves vs a few leaves?

I would rather it be black and white.

[Groucho Valentine]

Its technically a penalty, yes. But I've never seen it enforced in a tournament or by a player unless branches drop or something. 

[David in FL]

16 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Its technically a penalty, yes. But I've never seen it enforced in a tournament or by a player unless branches drop or something. 

Not necessarily.  Please refer to to decisions as discussed above...

[Rulesman]

59 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

Yeah it is, and after contemplating it I'm not sure if this equitable.. At what point is it considered to be a lot of leaves vs a few leaves?

I would rather it be black and white.

The test is not to do with the number of leaves. This is the test. 

Quote

The position or lie of his ball, the area of his intended stance or swing, his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole, or the area in which he is to drop or place a ball, must not be improved.

If there is no improvement, there is no breach. 

 The decision is only giving examples.

Meaning of of "Improve" in Rule 13-2

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-13,d13-2-0.5

 

 

Edited June 27, 2016 by Rulesman

[Abu3baid]

3 hours ago, Rulesman said:

The test is not to do with the number of leaves. This is the test. 

If there is no improvement, there is no breach. 

 The decision is only giving examples.

Meaning of of "Improve" in Rule 13-2

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-13,d13-2-0.5

 

 

That's my contention..  You think unimproved my swing area because a few leaves fell, but then I say no I didn't because there are a lot of leaves, you say no there aren't enough leaves.  The question then goes back to what constitutes a lot of leaves on the tree..  

In theory it sounds great, but in application that's where I think equity is questionable.  Shouldn't the rules / decisions be pretty clear cut as to when a penalty should happen?  So, would the line be 100 leaves + or 50 + or does it have to be in the thousands?

[iacas]

25 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

Shouldn't the rules / decisions be pretty clear cut as to when a penalty should happen?

They're as clear as they can be - was the area improved?

Not all leaves are the same size.

[Rulesman]

5 hours ago, Abu3baid said:

That's my contention..  You think unimproved my swing area because a few leaves fell, but then I say no I didn't because there are a lot of leaves, you say no there aren't enough leaves.  The question then goes back to what constitutes a lot of leaves on the tree..  

In theory it sounds great, but in application that's where I think equity is questionable.  Shouldn't the rules / decisions be pretty clear cut as to when a penalty should happen?  So, would the line be 100 leaves + or 50 + or does it have to be in the thousands?

So what would you suggest the rule should say exactly?

[Abu3baid]

3 hours ago, Rulesman said:

So what would you suggest the rule should say exactly?

Just go back to if you disturb anything then it is an automatic penalty.. i.e. if 1 leaf falls if there are a million leaves or just a couple it is the same result.

[David in FL]

3 hours ago, Abu3baid said:

Just go back to if you disturb anything then it is an automatic penalty.. i.e. if 1 leaf falls if there are a million leaves or just a couple it is the same result.

Other than you like "black and white", what's the reasoning in that?  Remember the rule isn't specifically about leaves, or branches, or uneven ground, or anything else.  It's about improving your lie, area of intended stance or swing, or line of play.  If that hasn't happened, there's no violation, nor should there be.  

You can't repair a divot in the fairway that might interfere with you, whether you're in that divot or not.  But there's no prohibition against repairing other divots, because they don't interfere.  Likewise, if a tree or bush is dense with foliage, knocking off a couple of leaves doesn't materially change a thing.  

For those that complain that the rules are sometimes overly restrictive, this is actually an example where simple common sense can be applied.