Bad Golf Parents

[IanW]

I 100% call these parents out on this kind of stuff. I refuse to sit idly by. I suggest others do the same. There are many ways to call the parents out and I am on board 100% with any of the methods. Talk nicely. Yell. Punch them. I don't care, but please do something.

I grew up in a small town in Canada where hockey was king. As a 10 year old I was able to figure out which kids were going to get a beating when they got home for how they played. As I got older, I saw kids that would have had a legitimate shot at making the NHL ruined by their parents (not always the father!). I saw it all. The original posters post is nothing compared to the things I have seen. And every single instance of it went without repercussions. Please please please, just do something. Anything. Just say something.

 

Here is an article I think every 'competitive' activity/sporting parent should read:

http://www.theplayerstribune.com/patrick-osullivan-nhl-abuse/

 

And another article. This guy's parents should be an inspiration to all us parents. They raised a son that, in my opinion, maximized his opportunities. He used every chance he had to better himself, both as a hockey player and as a person. Though his time in the NHL wasn't as exciting as the big names we hear about in that sport, it was very typical. He is coming out the other end a better person than he went in. THIS is, in my opinion, what competition is about.

http://www.theplayerstribune.com/a-guy-like-me/

 

But please, just say something to those parents that are going over the line. Even if it is "Please don't talk like that around me". It always results in a person reflecting, even just for a brief moment about what they said or how they acted. That moment of reflection is always an opportunity for change.

 

Ian

 

[Groucho Valentine]

2 minutes ago, IanW said:

I 100% call these parents out on this kind of stuff. I refuse to sit idly by. I suggest others do the same. There are many ways to call the parents out and I am on board 100% with any of the methods. Talk nicely. Yell. Punch them. I don't care, but please do something.

I grew up in a small town in Canada where hockey was king. As a 10 year old I was able to figure out which kids were going to get a beating when they got home for how they played. As I got older, I saw kids that would have had a legitimate shot at making the NHL ruined by their parents (not always the father!). I saw it all. The original posters post is nothing compared to the things I have seen. And every single instance of it went without repercussions. Please please please, just do something. Anything. Just say something.

 

Here is an article I think every 'competitive' activity/sporting parent should read:

http://www.theplayerstribune.com/patrick-osullivan-nhl-abuse/

 

And another article. This guy's parents should be an inspiration to all us parents. They raised a son that, in my opinion, maximized his opportunities. He used every chance he had to better himself, both as a hockey player and as a person. Though his time in the NHL wasn't as exciting as the big names we hear about in that sport, it was very typical. He is coming out the other end a better person than he went in. THIS is, in my opinion, what competition is about.

http://www.theplayerstribune.com/a-guy-like-me/

 

But please, just say something to those parents that are going over the line. Even if it is "Please don't talk like that around me". It always results in a person reflecting, even just for a brief moment about what they said or how they acted. That moment of reflection is always an opportunity for change.

 

Ian

 

Thats the instinct any decent human being would have when faced with seeing a child get treated like that, but i think jumping into other peoples parental practices is a bad idea..

[IanW]

9 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Thats the instinct any decent human being would have when faced with seeing a child get treated like that, but i think jumping into other peoples parental practices is a bad idea..

I respectfully disagree. Children generally only have their parents. When the parents are evil, they need someone else. 

 

Ian.

[Rainmaker]

2 hours ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Thats the instinct any decent human being would have when faced with seeing a child get treated like that, but i think jumping into other peoples parental practices is a bad idea..

 

2 hours ago, IanW said:

I respectfully disagree. Children generally only have their parents. When the parents are evil, they need someone else. 

 

Ian.

 

I dunno - I'd have to agree with Groucho.  Unless you see something that is 100% illegal (like beating a child in public) there really isn't anything you can do except make it worse.  You're not going to change this guys opinion in 5 minutes and, speaking only for myself, I'm not able to commit much more time to it than that.  Like . .I can't get this kids number and follow up or anything.  For all I know - the kid would have a worse time with it just because I pissed their parent off so much. 

Maybe it's a US vs Canada thing - but a parent in the US can call their kid an f'ing idiot all day long and there's nothing, legally, anybody can do about it.

[iacas]

3 hours ago, Braivo said:

@iacas That video is hard to watch, can't imagine acting that way, let alone in front of my kids. 

The kid in the orange shorts was restraining his father (far left in the video) at other times, crying, kept apologizing, was yelling "dad just stop!" etc.

The other parents (a father, a mother, of the other two competitors) were standing there not saying much.

Every time I thought the guy would stop, he'd start again. My wife eventually went over and told the group I'd called the tour director woman, and she was on her way. She also said that she'd call the police if they kept it up, as she felt it was about to come to blows.

2 hours ago, IanW said:

I 100% call these parents out on this kind of stuff. I refuse to sit idly by. I suggest others do the same. There are many ways to call the parents out and I am on board 100% with any of the methods. Talk nicely. Yell. Punch them. I don't care, but please do something.

You can't always do that. Yes, the guy was over board and across the line and all that, but you also don't know what the other parent had done up until that point. Was there a better way to handle it than behaving like that? Yes.

But as others said you are not going to change their minds, nor are you going to get the full story, in that short period of time. You're quite likely going to make things worse.

The best you can do is simply say "how about everyone calm down?" and to call the police or tournament director and let them handle it. You don't know the story, and I agree, short of outright illegal behavior where you fear for safety or well-being, you're perhaps more likely going to cause harm.

My wife and I did our parts here, but I didn't need to go over and start pushing the one guy back or adding my own yelling voice to the mix.

[IanW]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

The kid in the orange shorts was restraining his father (far left in the video) at other times, crying, kept apologizing, was yelling "dad just stop!" etc.

The other parents (a father, a mother, of the other two competitors) were standing there not saying much.

Every time I thought the guy would stop, he'd start again. My wife eventually went over and told the group I'd called the tour director woman, and she was on her way. She also said that she'd call the police if they kept it up, as she felt it was about to come to blows.

You can't always do that. Yes, the guy was over board and across the line and all that, but you also don't know what the other parent had done up until that point. Was there a better way to handle it than behaving like that? Yes.

But as others said you are not going to change their minds, nor are you going to get the full story, in that short period of time. You're quite likely going to make things worse.

The best you can do is simply say "how about everyone calm down?" and to call the police or tournament director and let them handle it. You don't know the story, and I agree, short of outright illegal behavior where you fear for safety or well-being, you're perhaps more likely going to cause harm.

My wife and I did our parts here, but I didn't need to go over and start pushing the one guy back or adding my own yelling voice to the mix.

Sorry @iacas. I wasn't referring specifically to the video you posted. My apologies. I meant in general :)

 

I agree that a calm demeanor is almost always the answer. Saying nothing is NOT the answer. But saying something at the time the abuse is occurring is 100% the right thing to do. Any expert in the field of child psychology will tell you this. Even if you just say 'hey, please try to be a little nicer' and then say nothing else.

 

Children of abusive parents/coaches typically believe they are actually in the wrong. It isn't until they experience others telling them or their abusers that they are in fact NOT in the wrong that there is any hope of them will report the abuse. Further, when reporting the abuse after positive affirmations from others, they are more likely to tell the truth regarding the abuse.

Every time a child is abused (verbally or physically) by someone in front of others it is reaffirming that they deserve it because nobody is saying it is wrong. 

 

Teachers in Canada get training for stuff like this. I believe in order to be a coach for hockey they require this training as well. IMO, every individual can benefit from a quick seminar on how to handle these situations. 

 

The short gist of it is if you see an abusive situation occurring you should say something. However, if you suspect that abuse is happening but isn't actively happening now, you should report it.

Let me put it another way. If the abuser was beating the child in front of you with a belt would you do something? I suspect every single one of us would. Words are just as strong as a belt. Just say something.

 

Ian

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, IanW said:

I agree that a calm demeanor is almost always the answer. Saying nothing is NOT the answer. But saying something at the time the abuse is occurring is 100% the right thing to do. Any expert in the field of child psychology will tell you this. Even if you just say 'hey, please try to be a little nicer' and then say nothing else.

No, it isn't.

As it so happens I talked with an expert in child psychology yesterday (a golf buddy who called to see how Nat played) on the drive home last night. He disagrees with you. You risk escalating the situation further, or adding to the yelling, etc.

The girl in my group with Nat yesterday got some "talkings to" from her father a few times, clearly. Not loud, but they didn't seem overly positive. I asked her a few times "everything okay?" or "you doing okay?" but beyond that, it's not my place to step in and tell someone else how to be a parent.

Imagine a parent smacking their kid in a Wal-Mart. Beyond even the fact that ideas differ between parents on whether that's acceptable or not, you have no idea what the kid did to that point. Even parents who think it's okay to smack their kid on the bottom will disagree at what level such punishment is appropriate.

---

All I'm saying is you can't make blanket statements like you are doing.

And no need to add "Ian" to the end of your posts, or to space paragraphs out with two returns as you're doing.

---

Oh, and the shit my soccer coaches said to me as a kid, man, these days… they might be thrown in jail. And yet, they're some of the best people I remember from my youth, and they did a great job. When I fucked up, I got my ass chewed off. When I did well, they were the first to tell me.

So you can't make blanket statements about what's right and wrong for other people. Illegal, or literally harming a child? Sure. Yelling? You don't know the story, and your morals are not the same as everyone else's.

I'm comfortable with how I handled yesterday's situation. We nearly called the police, and Carey stepped in to let them know we'd contacted the tournament director. But she wasn't going to address the child, or even really the screaming father directly.

[IanW]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

Imagine a parent smacking their kid in a Wal-Mart. Beyond even the fact that ideas differ between parents on whether that's acceptable or not, you have no idea what the kid did to that point. Even parents who think it's okay to smack their kid on the bottom will disagree at what level such punishment is appropriate.

---

All I'm saying is you can't make blanket statements like you are doing.

And no need to add "Ian" to the end of your posts, or to space paragraphs out with two returns as you're doing.

I too talk with people who are actively evaluating and removing children from these situations. I myself was involved in helping children in these situations. Say something. Always. Escalation is not a concern when abuse is occurring. It has already escalated to the maximum point. (some will say 'what if they kill the child'. The answer is it is already at that point if abuse is occurring so it doesn't matter)

The Walmart spanking is much different. Feel free to leave that be. The constant belittling of a child on the first tee is abuse. Abuse and punishment are much different. I agree that it can be difficult to tell the difference between the two. Often, saying something can make it obvious. And it typically makes it very apparent which situation is happening. That parent that spanks their kid at Walmart for discipline reasons, when asked 'is everything ok here', will provide an explanation or an apology. It in turn allows you to then show some compassion towards the parent that you understand what they are going through as well. An abuser will be all up in your face and threatening. A really successful abuser will actually find a way to come off as if they are simply disciplining the child. Either way, you lose nothing by saying something. Worst case scenario the abuse will continue. Better case scenarios you have given the child positive reinforcement that someone actually cares.

Sorry, I am still trying to figure out how the forum software all works :)

[newtogolf]

11 minutes ago, iacas said:

No, it isn't.

As it so happens I talked with an expert in child psychology yesterday (a golf buddy who called to see how Nat played) on the drive home last night. He disagrees with you. You risk escalating the situation further, or adding to the yelling, etc.

The girl in my group with Nat yesterday got some "talkings to" from her father a few times, clearly. Not loud, but they didn't seem overly positive. I asked her a few times "everything okay?" or "you doing okay?" but beyond that, it's not my place to step in and tell someone else how to be a parent.

Imagine a parent smacking their kid in a Wal-Mart. Beyond even the fact that ideas differ between parents on whether that's acceptable or not, you have no idea what the kid did to that point. Even parents who think it's okay to smack their kid on the bottom will disagree at what level such punishment is appropriate.

---

All I'm saying is you can't make blanket statements like you are doing.

And no need to add "Ian" to the end of your posts, or to space paragraphs out with two returns as you're doing.

---

Oh, and the shit my soccer coaches said to me as a kid, man, these days… they might be thrown in jail. And yet, they're some of the best people I remember from my youth, and they did a great job. When I ****ed up, I got my ass chewed off. When I did well, they were the first to tell me.

So you can't make blanket statements about what's right and wrong for other people. Illegal, or literally harming a child? Sure. Yelling? You don't know the story, and your morals are not the same as everyone else's.

I'm comfortable with how I handled yesterday's situation. We nearly called the police, and Carey stepped in to let them know we'd contacted the tournament director. But she wasn't going to address the child, or even really the screaming father directly.

This ^^, getting involved when there isn't any laws broken is just likely going to make it worse for the kid.  These types of parents are bully's, when they get called out they are either going to react violently towards you or their kid, in either case, you've made it worse for the kid.  

[phan52]

We have a great Junior program at our club and there is tremendous participation. The Pro Staff is very engaging in the program and the kids learn how to play before they are ever allowed on the course. Parents have little to do with the evaluation of their own child. But there are a few outliers who have to get involved and make it difficult, There is one guy in particular who has a bad habit of berating his kids on the range, He's a hot head about everything as it is and very unpleasant to play with so it is not surprising that he would treat his own kids in this way. Everybody hesitates to get involved when this is going on and rightfully so. I feel bad for the two kids, the daughter in particular, but he is their Dad and it isn't anybody's business unless there is clear abuse going on. At least they are in the program and also have input from the Pro Staff, which I am sure is very encouraging of their efforts.

[iacas]

18 minutes ago, IanW said:

I too talk with people who are actively evaluating and removing children from these situations. I myself was involved in helping children in these situations. Say something. Always. Escalation is not a concern when abuse is occurring. It has already escalated to the maximum point. (some will say 'what if they kill the child'. The answer is it is already at that point if abuse is occurring so it doesn't matter)

I think my last post said quite a bit, so my intent is to leave that as my last "main" post here, but again, you're missing my point. Define "abuse"? What's abuse to you may not be abuse to someone else. And you don't know the back story. And no, there are millions of situations where it has not "escalated to the maximum point."

18 minutes ago, IanW said:

The Walmart spanking is much different. Feel free to leave that be.

What?!?!?! How do you not see the huge inconsistency in your own statements? Yelling at a kid - you MUST step in 100% of the time, but hitting a kid, well, that's okay to leave alone?

I give up.

[IanW]

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

I think my last post said quite a bit, so my intent is to leave that as my last "main" post here, but again, you're missing my point. Define "abuse"? What's abuse to you may not be abuse to someone else. And you don't know the back story. And no, there are millions of situations where it has not "escalated to the maximum point."

What?!?!?! How do you not see the huge inconsistency in your own statements? Yelling at a kid - you MUST step in 100% of the time, but hitting a kid, well, that's okay to leave alone?

I give up.

You cherry picked my sentence out of the paragraph :) I said 'constant belittling' versus a spanking. Regardless, if you step in and communicate you can typically determine which of the two it is.

I strongly suggest you take some courses and talk to experts that deal with this stuff on a daily basis. Especially if you teach children. You can be the biggest difference maker in a child's life if you can identify and help them in these situations.

38 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

This ^^, getting involved when there isn't any laws broken is just likely going to make it worse for the kid.  These types of parents are bully's, when they get called out they are either going to react violently towards you or their kid, in either case, you've made it worse for the kid.  

Sadly, this isn't how it works. People think this is how it works. But in reality it isn't how it works. Feel isn't real.

Abusive parents are abusive. Bullies are bullies. There is no 'escalating' from those positions. Abusers and bullies are already near the top of the potential for violent incidents (granted, physical abusers and bullies are slightly above non-physical ones, but even that is now changing within law and treatment circles).

[IanW]

38 minutes ago, phan52 said:

We have a great Junior program at our club and there is tremendous participation. The Pro Staff is very engaging in the program and the kids learn how to play before they are ever allowed on the course. Parents have little to do with the evaluation of their own child. But there are a few outliers who have to get involved and make it difficult, There is one guy in particular who has a bad habit of berating his kids on the range, He's a hot head about everything as it is and very unpleasant to play with so it is not surprising that he would treat his own kids in this way. Everybody hesitates to get involved when this is going on and rightfully so. I feel bad for the two kids, the daughter in particular, but he is their Dad and it isn't anybody's business unless there is clear abuse going on. At least they are in the program and also have input from the Pro Staff, which I am sure is very encouraging of their efforts.

I played hockey with a father who was a hot head. Nobody would say anything. He would berate his kids after the game. People in the lobby would comment amongst themselves how bad they feel for the kid, how stupid the father is looking, etc... His 14 year old child shot him in the head with a 22 caliber rifle in his sleep because he couldn't handle the abuse that was going on once he got home. People thought he may have been abusive, but nobody wanted to step in and find out. Heaven forbid someone makes the abuser a little uncomfortable.

I strongly suggest everyone read of this article. This happens in more homes than you can imagine. It is even harder to detect when the mother or father isn't publicly abusive. But the signs are always there if one learns to understand what they are

http://www.theplayerstribune.com/patrick-osullivan-nhl-abuse/

[iacas]

@IanW, I think your posts here continue to be… weird. You step in 100% of the time when you see a kid being yelled at (how are you supposed to know if it's "constant belittling"?) but not being smacked around?

As I said I'm pretty comfortable with how I handled that situation, as well as situations in the past, and I'm well aware of different people's standards for how they treat, educate, clothe, feed, bathe, and otherwise care for and nurture their children.

And that's not to invite further response, though feel free. I'm done, however.

[IanW]

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

@IanW, I think your posts here continue to be… weird. You step in 100% of the time when you see a kid being yelled at (how are you supposed to know if it's "constant belittling"?) but not being smacked around?

As I said I'm pretty comfortable with how I handled that situation, as well as situations in the past, and I'm well aware of different people's standards for how they treat, educate, clothe, feed, bathe, and otherwise care for and nurture their children.

And that's not to invite further response, though feel free. I'm done, however.

I want to be clear. I am not suggested you handled the situation poorly (I didn't even look at the video to be honest). Instead, I am saying, in general, that people should at least say something in cases where it is potentially possible that something amiss is going on.

Yes. I do step in very close to 100% of the time. Stepping in can be very subtle: "Rough day isnt it." "I had your day yesterday." "Can I help you with your cart." etc... No need to waltz in and start raging because someone spanked their kid because they took a chocolate bar off the shelf and started eating it. The fascinating part is that almost every single time I offer help the people take me up on it. The rare times where they don't fall into 2 categories: 1) they have the situation under control and there is no issue, 2) They snap and rage indicating a potential issue. I can recall 3 times where option (2) has occurred. In all three cases the police were called. The police could then follow their protocols for such incidents.

Anyway, I surmise I have worn my welcome in this thread.  This is a topic I am quite passionate about so if anyone wants to further discuss feel free to message me privately.

[newtogolf]

11 minutes ago, IanW said:

I want to be clear. I am not suggested you handled the situation poorly (I didn't even look at the video to be honest). Instead, I am saying, in general, that people should at least say something in cases where it is potentially possible that something amiss is going on.

Yes. I do step in very close to 100% of the time. Stepping in can be very subtle: "Rough day isnt it." "I had your day yesterday." "Can I help you with your cart." etc... No need to waltz in and start raging because someone spanked their kid because they took a chocolate bar off the shelf and started eating it. The fascinating part is that almost every single time I offer help the people take me up on it. The rare times where they don't fall into 2 categories: 1) they have the situation under control and there is no issue, 2) They snap and rage indicating a potential issue. I can recall 3 times where option (2) has occurred. In all three cases the police were called. The police could then follow their protocols for such incidents.

Anyway, I surmise I have worn my welcome in this thread.  This is a topic I am quite passionate about so if anyone wants to further discuss feel free to message me privately.

Engaging the parent in a totally unrelated topic makes sense but this is the first time that you indicated that is your approach.  In your previous posts I got the impression you wanted us to call out these parents as demonstrating bad behavior or telling them to give their kids a break which in my experience never ends well for the kid.  

[IanW]

1 minute ago, newtogolf said:

Engaging the parent in a totally unrelated topic makes sense but this is the first time that you indicated that is your approach.  In your previous posts I got the impression you wanted us to call out these parents as demonstrating bad behavior or telling them to give their kids a break which in my experience never ends well for the kid.  

Thank you for clearly articulating why you (and likely others) didn't approve of my point. I see now that I did a poor job explaining that. Instead of using the phrase 'call them out' I should have said 'instigate a dialogue' with them.

[Vinny Cap]

It is sad how some parents do treat their kids.

I have not seen this in golf but as a coach in soccer and baseball, I have seen it many times.

Some of the verbally abusive parents I grew up with and they stunk it up out on the playing field and they are trying to re-live their youth through the kids.  Its really sad when the kid doesn't even want to play the sport.

I always did what I could to try and ease the situation but didn't get too involved as to have people want to come after me or threaten me.

I let my kids play the sports they want to play, not what I want them to play.  I don't force any of them on them but do encourage them to try them all as they don't know till they try.