Gimmes in League Playoffs

[DaveP043]

12 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

IMO conceding putts early can be a mistake if it starts a cycle of my opponent expecting a good-good routine. One thing I've noticed is the average league player doesn't really understand match play they simply imitate what they see the pros do but it doesn't shake out that way for amateurs unless we're talking elite amateurs. IME conceding putts that matter doesn't come up that often because the holes are won or lost before it gets that close.

The short answer for this thread should have been concede the short putts when you know there is near zero chance of winning or halving the hole. The majority of holes won typically will be over and done further away from the hole, like on the tee box. It's not very Ryder Cup-ish.

This brings up something that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread.  Before you decide to concede a putt, you should be certain of how the strokes on that hole stand, including any handicap strokes.  If I'm 6 inches away, putting for 3, I'll concede a 15-footer for 4, knowing that I'm going to make mine.  If I'm putting from 4 feet for 5, and my opponent is lying 2, with a 10-foot level putt, I'll concede it, he'll 2-putt for a 4 to win if I make him putt it.  If the outcome of the hole is in doubt, AND if there's any doubt at all about whether your opponent will make his putt, he should putt it.  

If there's a group right behind you, conceding a putt has the potential of making your opponent's putting stroke get a little cold.  Yes, he can practice putting on a hole after play is complete, as long as he "does not unduly delay play".  If someone is waiting, he shouldn't be practicing before moving on.  If he does indeed hit a practice putt with people waiting, next time I concede his putt I'll pick up his ball and walk to the next tee.  In my mind that's not gamesmanship, that's keeping up an appropriate pace of play.

3 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

 I don't believe in "gamesmanship", all I see from that is a player who lacks confidence in his ability to beat his opponent with his play.

Amen.  With a single caveat as mentioned above.

[Dave2512]

20 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

This brings up something that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread.  

Amen.  With a single caveat as mentioned above.

I mentioned it on page 2, it's why I brought handicapping into the conversation. It's also why I mentioned gamesmanship. Sure we want to play our best golf but match play is a different beast, you can take advantage of your opponents faults. If I have to give my opponent a stroke and we both have similar length putts to halve I am making him putt it knowing I have the advantage as the more skilled golfer. It is what it is and if they miss and get hot again it's an advantage. If I have to win on my ability so should my opponent.

 

[DaveP043]

Just now, Dave2512 said:

I mentioned it on page 2, it's why I brought handicapping into the conversation. It's also why I mentioned gamesmanship. Sure we want to play our best golf but match play is a different beast, you can take advantage of your opponents faults. If I have to give my opponent a stroke and we both have similar length putts to halve I am making him putt it knowing I have the advantage as the more skilled golfer. It is what it is and if they miss and get hot again it's an advantage. If I have to win on my ability so should my opponent.

To me, that's not gamesmanship, that's just normal competition.  If the putt matters (and knowing where handicap strokes apply goes into figuring out what matters) and there's some doubt as to whether he'll make it, he putts it.  If he doesn't like having to putt it, I agree with you, it shows a chink in his game, and one I won't feel bad about exploiting.  If he misses a 2-footer, or even looks a little shaky, he should expect to putt the rest of them, all day long.  From my end, I expect to have to putt everything, so I never mind my opponent not conceding one.  

I've played interclub matches for over 20 years, so most of those are against strangers.  Many times we'll talk about conceded or not-conceded putts over a beer after the round.  I want to know what someone saw in my previous putting to doubt my ability on "this" one, or I'll explain that the 2-footer on #7 was enough sidehill that I would have been a little nervous if it was my putt.  Sometimes I'll mention something like that on our way off the green, if I'm playing someone I like and respect.  There are very few times when it ends up being a big deal at the end, but sometimes in the heat of battle even little things can get a player a little riled up.

[Fourputt]

I guess in the end I want my opponent to feel that I showed a gentlemanly respect for him and for his game, while still doing everything I could to beat him like a drum.  That means that I'll usually give him a 2 foot putt for a halve, whether or not he does the same.  I want to win as much as the next guy, but I don't play golf as a blood sport.  

Late in the match I may not give him that same putt, especially if we are all square, or he is up on me.  I don't see that as gamesmanship, but as a change of strategy dictated by the state of the match.

[DaveP043]

6 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

I guess in the end I want my opponent to feel that I showed a gentlemanly respect for him and for his game, while still doing everything I could to beat him like a drum.  That means that I'll usually give him a 2 foot putt for a halve, whether or not he does the same.  I want to win as much as the next guy, but I don't play golf as a blood sport.  

Late in the match I may not give him that same putt, especially if we are all square, or he is up on me.  I don't see that as gamesmanship, but as a change of strategy dictated by the state of the match.

I think we're on the same page, I want my behavior on the course (including conceding putts) to live up to my personal standards.  I don't base my concessions on whether he's given me a putt previously, rather on the situation and on the probability of him making it.  That's why I'll sometimes explain myself on the way to the next tee, to avoid the development of hard feelings. I want to win, of course, and I want to walk away feeling like I've played golf against a friend. 

[Dave2512]

No reason you have to disrespect someone to be a tough opponent in the match. The strategy of conceding or not is part of match play. In close matches it can affect the outcome if putts are made or missed. There is much to consider during the last few holes in close matches, especially when strokes are being given.

Would you concede this putt? You are 1 down standing on the tee of hole 16. It's a par 3 and you hit the green but your opponent, who gets a stroke on this hole misses the green and chips on leaving roughly the same distance to the hole as your tee shot. You putt it to hanging on the lip distance (it's good) he runs his 16" past the hole. He maybe, probably makes it right.

But what if you remember that conceded halve leaves the match with him getting a stroke on 17, still 1 up, and it's #2 handicap hole, the longest par 4. He's been suffering from iffy putting all day but you know you often make bogey or worse on 17 because it's your home course. His making that 16" putt means a lot at that point.

 

 

 

 

[DaveP043]

6 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

No reason you have to disrespect someone to be a tough opponent in the match. The strategy of conceding or not is part of match play. In close matches it can affect the outcome if putts are made or missed. There is much to consider during the last few holes in close matches, especially when strokes are being given.

Would you concede this putt? You are 1 down standing on the tee of hole 16. It's a par 3 and you hit the green but your opponent, who gets a stroke on this hole misses the green and chips on leaving roughly the same distance to the hole as your tee shot. You putt it to hanging on the lip distance (it's good) he runs his 16" past the hole. He maybe, probably makes it right.

But what if you remember that conceded halve leaves the match with him getting a stroke on 17, still 1 up, and it's #2 handicap hole, the longest par 4. He's been suffering from iffy putting all day but you know you often make bogey or worse on 17 because it's your home course. His making that 16" putt means a lot at that point.

If its someone I like and respect, I say "Sorry, but I'd like to see you go ahead and make that one".  If its someone I don't care for, simple silence.  Again, if I'm your opponent, and its me with 16" left, I expect to putt it until I hear otherwise, with no hard feelings at all.  I know where the match stands, and I understand why you'd want me to putt it.

Oh, one other thing.  If I'm not dead sure you've told me to pick it up, I'll ask to confirm.  "Did you say this one is good?"  Its always better to ask than to have a misunderstanding.  

[Fourputt]

10 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

No reason you have to disrespect someone to be a tough opponent in the match. The strategy of conceding or not is part of match play. In close matches it can affect the outcome if putts are made or missed. There is much to consider during the last few holes in close matches, especially when strokes are being given.

Would you concede this putt? You are 1 down standing on the tee of hole 16. It's a par 3 and you hit the green but your opponent, who gets a stroke on this hole misses the green and chips on leaving roughly the same distance to the hole as your tee shot. You putt it to hanging on the lip distance (it's good) he runs his 16" past the hole. He maybe, probably makes it right.

But what if you remember that conceded halve leaves the match with him getting a stroke on 17, still 1 up, and it's #2 handicap hole, the longest par 4. He's been suffering from iffy putting all day but you know you often make bogey or worse on 17 because it's your home course. His making that 16" putt means a lot at that point.

 

 

 

 

I probably still give him a 16 inch putt unless he's simply a terrible putter (and if he's that bad and still up in the match, then I must be playing like crap and apparently haven't done anything to show that I deserve to win, anyway).  Like I said, I don't play it as a blood sport.  If I usually make bogey on 17 and I'm giving him a stroke, then he would typically do worse than my bogey, especially if it's not his home course.

[Jeremie Boop]

On 8/17/2016 at 9:14 AM, Zekez said:

Do you change your approach with gimme's when you have your League playoffs?  Are you more likely to not give as many putts, give more putts or stay pretty much the same?

I assume most here that play in a league do it mainly for fun, but let's face it, everyone likes to win too!

I probably lean towards giving less putts in the playoffs as I assume my opponent will be doing the same.  But as the match goes on that can change.

In my league it tends to depend on the person. Typically I'll watch them putt the first putt that's around 3 feet or so and if they make it easily I'll let them have anything that length or closer *because our league doesn't have any money/prizes/or trophies anyway only gross skins, and if it's a possible skin then putting out is mandatory*. Anything over 3 feet is putt out unless they are already out of the hole, meaning even with any stroke they may get they'll still lose if the make it. The league is already way overly lose with the rule following anyway so if I were to make people putt out everything I'd be THE most hated guy out there, as opposed to "that guy who thinks he's a pro and follows all the rules".

[Dave2512]

14 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

If its someone I like and respect, I say "Sorry, but I'd like to see you go ahead and make that one".  

Boy I never get anything like that. If it's someone I know and I've been fortunate or maybe unfortunate to draw guys I know well, ranger members I talk to weekly, fart in the cart types. If they knew I had a 16" putt to halve and a chance to comeback they'd be galloping around the green putter between legs taunting me.

[DaveP043]

Just now, Dave2512 said:

Boy I never get anything like that. If it's someone I know and I've been fortunate or maybe unfortunate to draw with guys I know well, ranger members I talk to weekly, fart in the cart types. If they knew I had a 16" putt to halve and a chance to comeback they'd be galloping around the green putter between legs taunting me.

I'll remember that if we ever get a chance to compete against one another.    Who knows, 2017 Newport Cup?

[Pete]

On 18/08/2016 at 11:56 PM, DaveP043 said:

The handicap rules specifically say that if you don't finish the hole, for handicap you record the score you most likely would have made.  If they give you a 2-footer, count it as one putt.  If they give you a 20-footer, count it as two putts for handicap posting.

This is extremely strange in my opinion. A couple of mates playing together every weekend who give each other 3 footers all day long, are definitely posting scores better than they would have done had they putted out on every hole.

[DaveP043]

45 minutes ago, Pete said:

This is extremely strange in my opinion. A couple of mates playing together every weekend who give each other 3 footers all day long, are definitely posting scores better than they would have done had they putted out on every hole.

@Pete, when you say "mates", it makes me thing you're in the UK somewhere.  I know for sure that the  CONGU handicap rules are different to ours in the USGA system, so maybe the same procedure doesn't apply there.  

On the other hand, two guys who always concede 3 footers almost certainly ARE posting lower scores than they would otherwise shoot, but the only person they're cheating by doing that is themselves.  First, their handicap is artificially low, second, they don't get the experience of making short putts when it matters.  I'm always happy to play a match against these guys, I love the look on their face when they realize they actually have to putt those testers.

[phillyk]

My league plays both match and stroke play at the same time.  You can still give gimmes but it makes you think more about at what stroke you give them the putt.  BUT most of us in this league are there to have fun and drink some beer.  So we usually give putts within 4ft-ish.  However if there is at least 3in of break, I make them putt it.  I never really take into account how close the match is, because it's more about whether or not I think they "should" make it.  In the first few holes, I usually get a sense for their short putting and that usually determines at what distance I can give them putts.  Playoffs is this week for us, but we do it differently in playoffs, because it isn't match play, it's just a stroke play with your team.  So I'm sure gimmies are given at bigger distances than should be but most people out here lose their strokes getting to the green versus on green anyway.  If my team will win, it's because we got the ball to the green in regulation and relatively closer to the hole.

[Pete]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

Pete, when you say "mates", it makes me thing you're in the UK somewhere.  I know for sure that the  CONGU handicap rules are different to ours in the USGA system, so maybe the same procedure doesn't apply there.  

On the other hand, two guys who always concede 3 footers almost certainly ARE posting lower scores than they would otherwise shoot, but the only person they're cheating by doing that is themselves.  First, their handicap is artificially low, second, they don't get the experience of making short putts when it matters.  I'm always happy to play a match against these guys, I love the look on their face when they realize they actually have to putt those testers.

Yeah, I'm a UK bloke @DaveP043. I think half of my posts revolve around differences between UK and US golf . I find it interesting what we both consider normal when they are sometimes very different. The rules in this case are different. Gimmes are not allowed in any way for a round that counts toward handicap. 

To contribute to the original post, I give putts when making the putt is a waste of time. That's the whole point of it for me. However, if a group of us (say half a dozen) play as one three ball teams against the other, with best 2 scores to count for example, we will agree no gimmes, even though it is an informal knock about with 'buddies'. It's not that we don't trust each other it's just that we would spend more time agreeing the distance at which a putt is given, and then checking that distance on every putt when it's not clear, than we would actually holing out every hole.

Basically, we only ever use gimmes in match play.

[Fourputt]

18 minutes ago, Pete said:

Basically, we only ever use gimmes in match play.

And then, to be really correct about it, they aren't (or shouldn't be) gimmes.  They are putts, or sometimes longer shots, conceded when deemed proper by an opponent, with no overriding collective agreement.