Order of play, team match play, best ball

[tdiii]

Can a person who is away have his teammate, who is closer and on the same line putt first and otherwise out of order so as to get a read?

[Piz]

No.  See Rule 10-2c.

[tdiii]

That rule doesn't seem to address team match play, does it?

[Piz]

"...if, however, the Committee determines that the competitors have agreed to play out of turn to give one of them an advantage, they are disqualified."       That's about as plain as it gets.

[tdiii]

4 minutes ago, Piz said:

"...if, however, the Committee determines that the competitors have agreed to play out of turn to give one of them an advantage, they are disqualified."       That's about as plain as it gets.

Yes but that is in the stroke play section of the rules. 

[Piz]

My bad.  I breezed right by Exception:  Rule 30-3b.  That rule (oops) is also as plain as it gets.  I can't see the logic in this particular case; but there it is.  

[Asheville]

30-3. Best-Ball and Four-Ball Match Play

b. Order of Play
Balls belonging to the same side may be played in the order the side considers best.

[Martyn W]

1 hour ago, tdiii said:

Can a person who is away have his teammate, who is closer and on the same line putt first and otherwise out of order so as to get a read?

When you say 'teammate' do you mean partner?

[Fourputt]

2 hours ago, Piz said:

My bad.  I breezed right by Exception:  Rule 30-3b.  That rule (oops) is also as plain as it gets.  I can't see the logic in this particular case; but there it is.  

Say the one who is closer lies 3 and the one who is farther away lies 2, then they give themselves a chance at making a 3 for the better ball.

[Piz]

1 minute ago, Fourputt said:

Say the one who is closer lies 3 and the one who is farther away lies 2, then they give themselves a chance at making a 3 for the better ball.

I get that part.  I was just wondering why it is forbidden when reckoning by strokes and okay when reckoning by holes.  Most of the time, the reason(s) behind a rule are apparent.  In this instance, I don't see it.  Either way the golfer in your example is putting for a 3 and, in either case, it would be advantageous to observe a similar putt beforehand.  Come to think of it...could the team avoid the rule by having the golfer furthest from the hole request that the nearer golfer mark?  Seems like the nearer golfer could elect to putt, in that case, and thus avoid penalty.

[Fourputt]

3 hours ago, Piz said:

I get that part.  I was just wondering why it is forbidden when reckoning by strokes and okay when reckoning by holes.  Most of the time, the reason(s) behind a rule are apparent.  In this instance, I don't see it.  Either way the golfer in your example is putting for a 3 and, in either case, it would be advantageous to observe a similar putt beforehand.  Come to think of it...could the team avoid the rule by having the golfer furthest from the hole request that the nearer golfer mark?  Seems like the nearer golfer could elect to putt, in that case, and thus avoid penalty.

It doesn't matter the the partners are playing stroke play or match play, they may still choose which ball to play first if one of the team's balls is the ball that is away.  See Rule 30 and 31.  The key is that they are partners and as such they can assist each other in other ways with advice and strategy decisions, etc.

If they choose to play the nearer ball, then they still have the honor for the next play.

The prohibition is for individual play so that a player may not assist another competitor just because he happens to be a friend, or he has a wager on the competitor, etc. This stipulation only applies in stroke play if there appears to be collusion between the players.  If playing our of turn is just incidental or to save time, there is no penalty.

[Piz]

Aha!  I had not considered that two competitors who were not partners would have any reason to collude; but, of course, the stricture is there to prevent two individuals from forming a battlefield alliance...so to speak.  Kind of an anti-Pinochle rule.  Thanks.

[Rulesman]

10 hours ago, tdiii said:

Can a person who is away have his teammate, who is closer and on the same line putt first and otherwise out of order so as to get a read?

Yes, unless the opponents concede that stroke. Assuming matchplay of course.

[Rulesman]

Decision 2-4/6

Rule 2-4 does not cover the question of whether a player may putt out after his next stroke has been conceded. A player incurs no penalty for holing out in such circumstances. However, if the act would be of assistance to a partner in a four-ball or best-ball match, the partner is, in equity (Rule 1-4), disqualified for the hole.

[Martyn W]

I actually had this situation this week: fourball stroke play, player A is twenty feet from the hole laying 4, his partner is 15 feet laying 2.The balls are not on the same line. Player A putts away from the hole to be on the same line as his partner so that he can give him a read with his next putt.

OK or not OK? Think about it, I'll post the answer later today :)

[Dormie1360]

30-3f/6

 

Player Plays Away from Hole to Assist Partner

Q.In a four-ball competition, a player purposely putts away from the hole to a position slightly farther from the hole than the spot where his partner's ball lies and on the same line to the hole as his partner's ball. The player then putts towards the hole, and the roll of his ball is helpful to his partner in determining how much his putt will break, etc. Is such a procedure permissible?

A.No. Such procedure is contrary to the spirit of the game. In match play, in equity (Rule 1-4), the player is disqualified for the hole and, since his action assisted his partner's play, the partner incurs the same penalty (Rule 30-3f).

In stroke play, in equity (Rule 1-4), the player incurs a penalty of two strokes and, under Rule 31-8, the partner incurs the same penalty.

[Martyn W]

1 hour ago, Dormie1360 said:

30-3f/6

 

Player Plays Away from Hole to Assist Partner

Q.In a four-ball competition, a player purposely putts away from the hole to a position slightly farther from the hole than the spot where his partner's ball lies and on the same line to the hole as his partner's ball. The player then putts towards the hole, and the roll of his ball is helpful to his partner in determining how much his putt will break, etc. Is such a procedure permissible?

A.No. Such procedure is contrary to the spirit of the game. In match play, in equity (Rule 1-4), the player is disqualified for the hole and, since his action assisted his partner's play, the partner incurs the same penalty (Rule 30-3f).

In stroke play, in equity (Rule 1-4), the player incurs a penalty of two strokes and, under Rule 31-8, the partner incurs the same penalty.

That's the one, well done!

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, Martyn W said:

That's the one, well done!

I'm not a fan of quizzes like this. I prefer that the answer is just given, not that people have to scroll through a bunch of guesses and wrong answers first.

P.S. Fixed.