Necessary to mark drop location?

[sacm3bill]

Was in a tournament recently. Declared my ball unplayable at one point. Determined a location to drop about 2 feet away from where it was (i.e. well within the allowed 2 club lengths). Picked up the ball and dropped it. (Didn't roll anywhere since it was a sandy area, so no re-drop rules came into play.)  The group in front of me claimed it was an illegal drop because I did not first mark the location of my intended drop with a tee or some such. Were they correct?

I've looked through the rules and decisions and have found nothing in the lifting and dropping rules that requires anything to be marked. (Other than when the ball is to be replaced, but that was not the case here.) Certainly I've seen instances in tournaments when taking free relief where a tee is used to mark nearest point of relief and then another tee is used to mark 2 club lengths from the 1st tee, but is that required? (Either in that case or in my unplayable lie scenario.) If so please cite a rule or decision if possible. Thanks.

[pganapathy]

Provided you drop within the designated area and you are certain it does not move outside the area, it is not mandatory that you have to use tees to mark it.  However, the reason tees are used is to make it easy for anybody else to see and then not claim that you took an illegal drop.  Provided you can prove it is legal, there are no issues.  Assuming somebody says you dropped illegally, that is when the burden of proof falls on you

[iacas]

You're fine. You don't have to mark the drop area… you simply have to make a legal drop.

[bkuehn1952]

5 hours ago, pganapathy said:

... it is not mandatory ... however, the reason tees are used is to make it easy for anybody else to see and then not claim that you took an illegal drop.  

@pganapathy makes a very valid point.  One can certainly perform certain tasks without the measuring, marking, etc...  The problem is that others viewing the process may incorrectly question the validity.  At times it is just easier to take a few seconds and make the process transparent so one does not get flak from a "rules expert."

Just yesterday I took the flagstick out to tap in a 1 inch putt.  Rather than hold the flagstick while I did this (perfectly acceptable as long as I don't use it as an aid), I quickly laid it down, tapped in and put the flag back.  Yes, it was a bit more effort but I did not want to give someone the opportunity to make a fuss over nothing.

[Fourputt]

The only requirement is that the drop is correct.  It must first hit the ground within the area prescribed under whatever rule you are following, and it must not roll into a position not allowed under Rule 20-2.  There is no requirement to measure and mark the drop area unless you are planning to drop near the limit of the allowed location.

It is never incorrect to measure, and sometimes it is necessary.  Establishing the nearest point of relief when taking relief without penalty is one of the most frequently abused processes, and it is the one that I always make a point of doing it correctly when I'm playing a competition.

 Those "experts" who hassled you only know what they watch the pros do on TV.  They clearly do not know the rule.  If you make what you are certain is a legal drop, it's up to your accuser to prove that you did not do so.

[turtleback]

8 hours ago, pganapathy said:

Provided you drop within the designated area and you are certain it does not move outside the area, it is not mandatory that you have to use tees to mark it.  However, the reason tees are used is to make it easy for anybody else to see and then not claim that you took an illegal drop.  Provided you can prove it is legal, there are no issues.  Assuming somebody says you dropped illegally, that is when the burden of proof falls on you

I disagree with the bolded part.  It is up to the person making the claim to make their case.  All you have to do, as the player, is say and show what you did.  Particularly when it is a bogus claim that would be refused because the claimer doesn't know the rules, as in this case.

 

[pganapathy]

On ‎9‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 9:41 PM, turtleback said:

I disagree with the bolded part.  It is up to the person making the claim to make their case.  All you have to do, as the player, is say and show what you did.  Particularly when it is a bogus claim that would be refused because the claimer doesn't know the rules, as in this case.

 

That is exactly what I mean by the burden of proof falls on you.  You now need to prove to somebody that you did not take an illegal drop.  You need to point out where the relief is being taken from and then prove that it is dropped within the club lengths, didn't roll beyond them etc.  What you cannot do is say to the accuser that you are right and ask them to prove you are wrong.  It is a pain, is all

[Fourputt]

5 hours ago, pganapathy said:

That is exactly what I mean by the burden of proof falls on you.  You now need to prove to somebody that you did not take an illegal drop.  You need to point out where the relief is being taken from and then prove that it is dropped within the club lengths, didn't roll beyond them etc.  What you cannot do is say to the accuser that you are right and ask them to prove you are wrong.  It is a pain, is all

You still have it backwards.  All the player has to do is to show what he did.  It's up to his accuser to prove that the action taken was wrong.  I've been in exactly this situation when I was accused by a fellow competitor of making an incorrect drop from a lateral water hazard.  Two members of the committee, along with the accuser and I and the other 2 players in my group all went back to the spot and I showed exactly what I did.  The other 2 FC's confirmed that my demonstration was accurate, and the committee ruled that I had played correctly.  

I didn't have to "prove" anything.  My accuser bore the burden of proof and failed show that I had done anything wrong.

[iacas]

3 hours ago, Fourputt said:

You still have it backwards.  All the player has to do is to show what he did.  It's up to his accuser to prove that the action taken was wrong.  I've been in exactly this situation when I was accused by a fellow competitor of making an incorrect drop from a lateral water hazard.  Two members of the committee, along with the accuser and I and the other 2 players in my group all went back to the spot and I showed exactly what I did.  The other 2 FC's confirmed that my demonstration was accurate, and the committee ruled that I had played correctly.  

I didn't have to "prove" anything.  My accuser bore the burden of proof and failed show that I had done anything wrong.

You had to go back out and demonstrate that you dropped properly.

Your "accuser" only had to say "I think he dropped improperly."

Had you dropped improperly, he could have said "See! That wasn't his nearest point of relief" while you were demonstrating it.

[Rulesman]

In this case your 'accuser' only accused you of dropping illegally not of playing from a wrong place. 

If he is unhappy, he can only report the incident to the committee. As there is no requirement to mark anything, the committee would/should simply have ruled that there was no breach. There was no need to return to the scene.

[Liko81]

On 9/1/2016 at 2:41 AM, pganapathy said:

Provided you drop within the designated area and you are certain it does not move outside the area, it is not mandatory that you have to use tees to mark it.  However, the reason tees are used is to make it easy for anybody else to see and then not claim that you took an illegal drop.  Provided you can prove it is legal, there are no issues.  Assuming somebody says you dropped illegally, that is when the burden of proof falls on you

This. A ball has to be dropped within two clublengths of your current lie and not nearer the hole under Rule 28c, and then after it drops it must come to rest within two clublengths of the point of impact and not nearer the hole. Marking both the previous lie and your intended drop point allow you to prove beyond reasonable doubt that both of these are true. However, you are only required to mark your current lie if the ball is to be replaced (20-1), which it is not in this situation, and you are not required to mark the spot of an intended drop at all, so marking either of these points is only as required by your fellow-competitors to ensure the drop is legal.

Keep in mind that you are allowed, under Rule 28, to substitute a ball. That means that the ball you are declaring unplayable can be its own marker if you simply pull a new one out and drop that, before picking up the unplayable ball. Also keep in mind that an illegal drop is not a penalty until you make a stroke at it; if a fellow-competitor wants you to re-drop because there is some question as to its legality, you may do so without any additional penalty, as many times as necessary until your fellow-competitor(s) is/are satisfied. If they wait until the ball is downrange before calling a penalty for an illegal drop, first off I wouldn't be playing with them again, and second I'd put the burden back on them to show why it was illegal.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Liko81