My Swing (DownAndOut)

[DownAndOut]

I've been Playing Golf for: 25 years
My current handicap index or average score is: 15
My typical ball flight is: straight
The shot I hate or the "miss" I'm trying to reduce/eliminate is: the odd pull hook and push - caused by leading with the big muscles of my body trying to dominate the swing. which can cause all sorts of errant shots due to faulty kinetic sequence and sudden manipulation.

1st swing video is my newish Tom Tomasello swing technique (early wrist set in backswing , right arm sweep release or push/throw in the downswing)

2nd video is my old Shawn Clement WIG swing. Luckily , I am able to switch quite easily between both (completely different initial setup and swing feels for me). The WIG swing compresses the ball more and I can hit irons/woods 10 yards longer (sometimes even more) but distance control difficult and accuracy inconsistent (can sometimes lose balls with a big pull hook or block right ). You can see why the WIG swing is inconsistent because of the 'centrifugal pump'  type weight shift that I use (causing my posture/head to bob up and down a bit too much). The pump action is basically a biomechanically friendly way of turning the hips as I toss the arms/club unit into the backswing. Because of my weak wrists/hands, I found  the natural late wrist hinge in the WIG swing very difficult to handle (ie. larger dynamic swing weight ) which also caused me to overswing. Shawn has different options for doing the weight shift (ie. rolling ankles, left heel up,  etc) and backswing (placing instead of tossing), which I didn't explore properly but that late wrist set just doesn't work for me.

Excuse my overly large tee shirt as I had to borrow a spare one from my father (when he was quite portly).

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Videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV5-81e5Krw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4znmF9XmTKU

 

Edited October 13, 2016 by DOWNANDOUT

[Club Rat]

Hello Mr. Smith and welcome to TST.

The first comment members will make is to improve the video, the lighting in your first video is very dim which creates a silhouette image.
In both videos, it appears you straighten upward (spine angle) and then compensate the turn by lunging downward to strike the ball.
At the top of your backswing, your shoulders appear to be almost parallel with almost no tilt at the ball.
I also see the left arm flex at the top of the backswing (short-arming) which happens as we get older. I struggle correcting it constantly.
You also appear very fidgety at address. Try to relax you body before your swing.

There are several teaching pros who often help those who post swing threads and will offer more detailed explanations and can certainly help you more than I can offer.

Good luck and enjoy TST.

[DownAndOut]

Many thanks for those observations Club Rat. I noticed the flexed elbow but didn't pick up on the flat shoulder turn . Yes , it looks like a very poor shoulder turn plane and doesn't comply with what Tom Tomasello advocates (which is what I am trying to learn). This could explain those errant pulls and pushes too. Sorry about the video quality because the range is all closed in and sheltered behind me. I'll try and get some videos while I'm on the course .

[DownAndOut]

Forgot to add , that the poor shoulder turn plane is probably also causing my primary tilt to straighten just to allow my shoulder enough room to try and complete the backswing (without crashing into my chin). Might be the root cause of everything including the difficulty and slight strain I feel in the follow through too.

[iacas]

You should embed videos, please. People are less likely to follow them to YouTube when they're used to playing them in the same page.

https://thesandtrap.com/how-to/embed-videos

[DownAndOut]

Many thanks but couldn't get it to work for some reason . I just posted a few videos yesterday and it worked a treat but not for the ones posted above.

[DownAndOut]

NATURE BOY WROTE:

Try this: set up at address with the club soled on the ground about in the middle of your stance and slightly open to the target then take your normal grip.

Now push your hands forward toward the target (leaving the club soled on the ground); now open your shoulders slightly to the target. What's the club's relationship to the target now?

I don't think it's necessarily grip dependent. If you prefer a geometrically / anatomically flat lead wrist at impact strong grip may be more comfortable. If you like a bowed / palmar flexed wrist (admittedly more likely to be a lower HCP move) at impact neutral or weaker grip may be more comfortable.

REPLY

Sorry but unsure whether we are talking in circles here. Tom Tomasello advocated the feel of an early karate chop motion (push/throw with right arm) from a backswing position where the hands are below shoulder height . That action he termed 'down ' and 'out' on the swing plane move.  He kept repeating that if you did that motion (while also rotating your left side out of the way) , you cannot also be releasing the clubhead in a flippy motion (past your flat left wrist ) at the same time.

Now when you actually do that 'feel' motion , it won't look like that to an outside observer. A snapshot of your swing with a high speed camera will show you in the correct dynamic position as you approach the release phase of the swing.

He also mentioned that if you tried to release the swing to target , the ball would move left of target because of clubhead lag between the back of a flat wrist through impact. It is confusing when he says swing to 1st base because I don't know what he means exactly. But I think he is just giving a general description meaning  'swing right of target' rather than an exact angle from hitter to 1st base that one sees on a baseball grid. I've looked at a baseball grid yesterday and it almost looks 45 degrees so obviously he exagerrated to make a point.

Now PAW PAW seemed to have misinterpreted what Tom said about that that 'Karate' chop feel . He tried to dynamically fully release the clubhead before impact  which is wrong because it should be impossible to release those angles if you keep turning your left side out of the way. I submitted his video because it sort of demonstrated something that I never realised. That a feel of an 'incorrect early release' produces a dynamically correct early release if you did it the way that Tom Tomasello instructed. PAW PAW sometimes did this correctly (when he did it subconsciously) but at other times he was really consciously trying to release all his angles before impact and it started going wrong (and then he started fidgeting around with his stance alignment, clubface at address, etc).

If you look at Tom's drill video below where he says something quite important.from point 5:00 - 5:21. Basically he is replicating an impact position with the clubface open at impact.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2016 by DownAndOut

[DownAndOut]

Went to the range today and hit a few hundred balls . Tried both my Shawn Clement swing and Tomasello styles but surprised that they were both inconsistent considering I hit my best scores with the latter. I think the cocking of the right arm is the one action which is pure guesswork. How much do I cock my right arm as I pivot to ensure that the clubshaft is tracking the geometrically correct plane? It seems to be impossible to check unless I had one of those lasers stuck to the butt of the grip and saw it trace across the target line. Is this 'baby step'  action just too much of a variable and is there a simpler drill rather than the 10 step one that Tomasello taught?  Well yes there is and its called :-

The "Faldo" Pre-Set Drill - Perfect Top of Backswing Position

Excellent results on the range , and felt like an effortless smoother way of swinging on a geometrically correct plane (hooray!!!) . So in effect, Tomasello has provided me with a direction to finding a simpler path . There are important bits in Tomasello instruction that I can still use but the drill above is so much simpler and I can keep my left arm straighter in the backswing, creating a wider arc.

[iacas]

I don't know what you're working on, but it doesn't seem to be the direction I'd start you with at all.

I'd work on your setup, then pivot/turn. Your hands don't gain the depth and if you had a face-on video I'm sure we'd see an insufficient turn as well.

These frames show me quite a bit. I'd work on your turn, not a "karate chop" feel or whatever it is you're doing:

I'd also caution you against applying "feels" somewhat blindly. Feels aren't real - they're different for everyone.

Though, I'd really like to see a face-on video, too.

[DownAndOut]

Many thanks, I'll try and get a face-on video. Yes ,I find it almost impossible to get a full turn and even more strain on the follow-through where I cannot turn in posture. I think its because I have severe flexibility issues in my spine/hips/hamstrings. I have a very S shaped spine which doesn't help.

[SoggySog]

If you angle the back foot OUT a little at address it'll help your turn

[DownAndOut]

WIG swing is more powerful but less consistent  - the up and down movement  caused by knees extending/squatting moves my upper swing centre too much (makes timing very difficult). This swing requires an active athletic pivot and the 'Sam Snead Power Squat', a strong grip and the ability to brace and re-rotate on a weight-pressured left leg.

The tossing of the 'Arms'Club' unit in the backswing makes it difficult for me not to overswing and cock/collapse my wrists at the end of my backswing. Unable to fluently  do the 'Hogan Power Move' , the 'Sam Snead Squat'  or rotate without strain on my braced front leg means that this swing is probably not fit for my body biomechanics. 

Without the HPM and Sam Snead Squat , my swing plane is more on the right shoulder plane and basically non-optimal. It needs to go through the elbow plane more and match the geometry of the club. If shoulder plane is too vertical for the geometry of the club , I will get big pushes to the right (which I do quite a bit).  Difficulty getting rotation around my lead leg while trying to actively pivot is an obvious impediment for me and this causes me to early extend and also sometimes pull hook . I really like the WIG philosophy but it obviously does not fit me and I will have to accept that fact.

Tomasello 'right arm basic push stroke' fits me perfectly. The geometry aspect looks correct and its not difficult for me to do the various moves. I noticed that I had forgotten one basic feel and that was the pressure point in my index trigger finger . In the backswing , my right wrist was hinging properly but then I was allowing the weight of the club to supinate my forearm slightly. This mean't that the index finger pressure was not 'supporting the dynamic weight of the club' to keep it on plane  but directed in a way that the pressure would actively promote an early casting action (as I pulled my forearms down).

Early immediate wrist set is problematic (and too mechanical ) so I might just toss it slightly in the backswing to get it set early but more fluidly.  A reactive pivot fits me better and it seems that this swing action works better for a rear or centre-anchor golfer (I am a 'rear of centre' anchor golfer). My wrist hinge action is horizontal (again a perfect fit for TT swing) . My swing linkage is centre and matches my hip clearance preference (sacrum located).

Problem with first move downswing . Do I pull with the forearms or thrust that right shoulder down the plane? Will be experimenting to find easiest way without creating too much secondary tilt and too much lag loading (especially bad for my longer irons and driver). Pulling with the left forearm can create tension so maybe just try and pull with the last three fingers and prevent tension going up the radial side all the way to the shoulder. The tensing up of the left forearm can destroy this swing so I have to fix it.

Practicing at home now getting my grip and index trigger finger in the correct position to feel the clubshaft inertial lag. Impact fix drill I'm experimenting with is great to predict and feel impact doing short basic chip strokes. Will start increasing the length of these swings during the next few months while I sit out this terrible UK weather.

 

[DownAndOut]

MY OWN NOTES:

My own personal correction : " In the backswing , my right wrist was hinging properly but then I was allowing the weight of the club to supinate my forearm slightly " . 

Should have said "pronate my forearm slightly".

Another thing noticed today. In the downswing until clubshaft horizontal , I should be feeling pressure points  as follows:

1. The pressure point on my trigger index trigger finger creating a balancing 'turning moment'  to counter the clubs own turning moment (ie. its weight via its centre of gravity on the inclined plane). This pressure vector component in the x-axis direction is caused by the turning of the right shoulder.

2. The pressure felt via the right thumb along the the surface of the inclined plane as it feels the inertia of the club as it swings in a circle.

3. Frictional pressure felt in the last three fingers of each hand as the forearms pull the clubshaft along its length.

MUST NOT HAVE ANY PICCOLO EFFECT AT THE TOP OF THE BACKSWING OTHERWISE I WILL CAST EARLY AS I REGRIP THE CLUBSHAFT.

From the horizontal position through impact , the pressure points change:

1. The trigger index finger now replaces the thumb as the 'inertial' pressure point along the surface of the swing plane.

2. Thumb pad pressure is used to balance the turning moment of the club's weight. 

3. Frictional pressure in the last 3 fingers of each hand is felt to stop the club flying out in a tangent.to the arc of the swing.

Golf philosophies worth noting here:

Educated hands -  Henry Cotton, 

Feel the swing via the hands and fingers - Ernest Jones

Edited December 15, 2016 by DownAndOut

[saevel25]

The problem with constantly looking for faults is that you never decide on what to prioritize. Believe me, I use to and sometime still have the same issue. It is good to get a lot of information as long as it is towards your priority piece. 

[mvmac]

Jeez and I thought I got too technical 

[iacas]

17 hours ago, DownAndOut said:

MY OWN NOTES:

My own personal correction : " In the backswing , my right wrist was hinging properly but then I was allowing the weight of the club to supinate my forearm slightly " . 

Should have said "pronate my forearm slightly".

Another thing noticed today. In the downswing until clubshaft horizontal , I should be feeling pressure points  as follows:

1. The pressure point on my trigger index trigger finger creating a balancing 'turning moment'  to counter the clubs own turning moment (ie. its weight via its centre of gravity on the inclined plane). This pressure vector component in the x-axis direction is caused by the turning of the right shoulder.

2. The pressure felt via the right thumb along the the surface of the inclined plane as it feels the inertia of the club as it swings in a circle.

3. Frictional pressure felt in the last three fingers of each hand as the forearms pull the clubshaft along its length.

MUST NOT HAVE ANY PICCOLO EFFECT AT THE TOP OF THE BACKSWING OTHERWISE I WILL CAST EARLY AS I REGRIP THE CLUBSHAFT.

From the horizontal position through impact , the pressure points change:

1. The trigger index finger now replaces the thumb as the 'inertial' pressure point along the surface of the swing plane.

2. Thumb pad pressure is used to balance the turning moment of the club's weight. 

3. Frictional pressure in the last 3 fingers of each hand is felt to stop the club flying out in a tangent.to the arc of the swing.

Golf philosophies worth noting here:

Educated hands -  Henry Cotton, 

Feel the swing via the hands and fingers - Ernest Jones

You're doing it wrong.

[DownAndOut]

You non-believers. We shall see how things progress or regress in the next few months. 

[iacas]

14 minutes ago, DownAndOut said:

You non-believers. We shall see how things progress or regress in the next few months. 

It is not about belief.

Though I should have added "if your goal is to improve" to my last post.

You're not only working on the wrong priorities, you're working on them poorly/inefficiently.