Clubhead vs. Path: Need clarification.

[iacas]

21 minutes ago, TryingtoPlay said:

Again, with a path that is 0 degrees to the target and a face that is 6 degrees open, that ball is going to start on the line of the face and it is going to slice. That is a fact. So, it depends on exactly what you mean.

I'm confused, because I know the proper ball flight laws. Hell, I wrote https://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws .

The "old" ball flight laws are wrong. The "new" ones are right. (The ball doesn't start exactly on the line of the face, just closer to it than the path - 70-90%).

What depends on "what I mean?"

"Ball starts close to the face, curves away from the path (unless face/path match)."

[mvmac]

2 hours ago, TryingtoPlay said:

Again, with a path that is 0 degrees to the target and a face that is 6 degrees open, that ball is going to start on the line of the face and it is going to slice. That is a fact. So, it depends on exactly what you mean.

Your example is in agreement with what @iacas said. Ball starts where the face is pointed and curves away from the path. 

Ball will start about 6° right of the target and curve right. We like to use right and left as it relates to the target and open and closed at it relates to the path. So face right of the target and open to the path.

[TryingtoPlay]

10 hours ago, iacas said:

I'm confused, because I know the proper ball flight laws. Hell, I wrote https://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws .

The "old" ball flight laws are wrong. The "new" ones are right. (The ball doesn't start exactly on the line of the face, just closer to it than the path - 70-90%).

What depends on "what I mean?"

"Ball starts close to the face, curves away from the path (unless face/path match)."

I know that the old ball flight laws are incorrect. What do you mean by "curves away from the path." In the scenario that I listed above the path is square to the target and the face is 6° open. In that scenario, the ball will start well right of the target and it will slice. Again, that is a push slice, not just a push. It is differential that matters.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, TryingtoPlay said:

I know that the old ball flight laws are incorrect. What do you mean by "curves away from the path." In the scenario that I listed above the path is square to the target and the face is 6° open. In that scenario, the ball will start well right of the target and it will slice. Again, that is a push slice, not just a push. It is differential that matters.

The path is at 0°, and the ball starts to the right of it. If it curved toward the path, it would curve left. It curves "away" from the path… farther to the right.

[TryingtoPlay]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

The path is at 0°, and the ball starts to the right of it. If it curved toward the path, it would curve left. It curves "away" from the path… farther to the right.

Yes, based on the differential between the face and the path. The point is that the ball is slicing due to the differential between the face and the path, not solely because of the path. In fact, in that scenario, the path is zeroed to the target. Movement in the air is hence just as much about the face as it is the path. The face predominantly dictates the initial direction of launch and the differential between the face and the path dictates movement in the air.

On 10/14/2016 at 10:37 AM, TryingtoPlay said:

I always hear the adage that the clubhead dictates the direction of launch while the path dictates movement in the air. Studying the ball flight laws I must admit that I am seeing the opposite in the characteristics of ball flight, namely that path dictates direction of launch and clubhead position relative to path dictates movement in the air. I need some clarification on the ball laws and how each interaction induces each ball flight.

Thank you

My initial post was poorly written. I should have said that I see the opposite being just as true.

[TryingtoPlay]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

The path is at 0°, and the ball starts to the right of it. If it curved toward the path, it would curve left. It curves "away" from the path… farther to the right.

We are in agreement on the laws. I just don't understand your use of tge phrade "away" from the path. Away from the path relative to what? It is all relative to the clubface. If you come-out-to in by 2°, we don't know what that ball is going to do in the air. If the clubface is 4° closed, that ball is going to start approximately 4° left and it is going to draw in the air. Obviously, if the face is 0° to the target, then it will start approximately straight and it will fade in the air.

[DaveP043]

18 minutes ago, TryingtoPlay said:

We are in agreement on the laws. I just don't understand your use of tge phrade "away" from the path. Away from the path relative to what? It is all relative to the clubface. If you come-out-to in by 2°, we don't know what that ball is going to do in the air. If the clubface is 4° closed, that ball is going to start approximately 4° left and it is going to draw in the air. 

In this case, as you said, the ball will start around 4 degrees left and draw.  The path is 2 degrees left.  When the ball draws, it will go to 6 or 8 or 15 degrees left, which means it is  further away from the path, which was 2 degrees left.  This terminology is intended to make it clear that the ball will never start left of the path, like this one did, and then curve back toward the path.  Unless of course you're playing in some really heavy wind, and that's completely 

[natureboy]

23 minutes ago, TryingtoPlay said:

We are in agreement on the laws. I just don't understand your use of tge phrade "away" from the path. Away from the path relative to what? It is all relative to the clubface. If you come-out-to in by 2°, we don't know what that ball is going to do in the air. If the clubface is 4° closed, that ball is going to start approximately 4° left and it is going to draw in the air. Obviously, if the face is 0° to the target, then it will start approximately straight and it will fade in the air.

Everybody is correct in their descriptions of the correct ball flight laws, it's just a matter of relative to what you're focused on in the impact conditions.

A simple way to phrase it might be that the initial ball flight direction is indicative of the face angle relative to the target and the amount of curve is indiciative of the path relative to that face direction (assuming center contact).

[Ernest Jones]

1 hour ago, TryingtoPlay said:

We are in agreement on the laws. I just don't understand your use of tge phrade "away" from the path. Away from the path relative to what? It is all relative to the clubface. If you come-out-to in by 2°, we don't know what that ball is going to do in the air. If the clubface is 4° closed, that ball is going to start approximately 4° left and it is going to draw in the air. Obviously, if the face is 0° to the target, then it will start approximately straight and it will fade in the air.

2

Away from the path relative to the path... like if I was to walk away from a tree, you wouldn't ask "away from the tree relative to what?"

[iacas]

2 hours ago, TryingtoPlay said:

Yes, based on the differential between the face and the path. The point is that the ball is slicing due to the differential between the face and the path, not solely because of the path.

Of course not "solely" because of the path. I assure you… I know the ball flight laws. I teach the D-Plane to other instructors, I filmed a very widely cited video on the ball flight laws, the works. Most people here know the ball flight laws too, and I took a part in helping a good number of those people understand them.

1 hour ago, TryingtoPlay said:

I just don't understand your use of the phrase "away" from the path. Away from the path relative to what?

The ball is to the left or right of the path, so "away" from the path means further to the left or right.

If the path is a straight line pointing at the target, and the ball is right of that because the face was 1° or 8° or 20° right of the target line, the ball will be to the right and then curve further right, away from the path.

The ball starts generally where the clubface is pointing, and then curves away from the path. There's a time frame in there. The ball starts somewhere, and if the path to one side or the other, the ball will then curve away from it.

Assuming contact on the sweet spot.

[Ernest Jones]

@TryingtoPlay

Keep in mind that the ball has no idea where the target - and thus, target-line - is. At impact, all it knows is the direction the face is pointing, the direction the path is moving at impact, and the differential, if any, between the two.  (It also knows the AoA and some other stuff, but let's set that aside for the sake of this discussion).