The Four Stages of Competence

[iacas]

I don't know that you understood @Lihu. You can't be conscious competent looking at your swing and finding flaws. Competent means you can actively fix it. Not just know what it is.

[Lihu]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

I don't know that you understood @Lihu. You can't be conscious competent looking at your swing and finding flaws. Competent means you can actively fix it. Not just know what it is.

So, I probably didn't fully understand, that's why I put myself between conscious incompetent and starting to get a little bit of conscious competence by the way of a few "moments of brilliance" here and there where I could make purposeful improvements at least some of the time.

Is being "conscious" knowing in the same manner as a good instructor, or that you are capable of simply understanding and trying something consciously to improve?

The other thing is, are there any golfers who are unconscious competent? I don't know too many people who are capable of doing other things while playing golf at the same time?

So, is the highest level any golfer can actually achieve "conscious competent"?

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, Lihu said:

So, I probably didn't fully understand, that's why I put myself between conscious incompetent and starting to get a little bit of conscious competence by the way of a few "moments of brilliance" here and there where I could make purposeful improvements at least some of the time.

No. I don't think you get it at all now.

Very little of it is intellectual.

[CarlSpackler]

This almost seems like a muti-faceted concept when it comes to the golf swing. On one hand, I am Unconsciously Competent in that I can walk up to a ball and swing away without giving it a thought. Those who play with me often comment about how I step to the ball and fire away. As a matter of fact, when I stop and think about it is when I usually run into trouble. This is not to say that my swing isn't full of faults, but I can hit a golf ball without thinking about it. A professional wouldn't think that I'm competent in the least, but I suppose you could say the same thing about Lance Armstrong watching me ride a bike or Michael Phelps watching me swing.

On the next level, I am trying to improve or change something about my swing during practice. I am thinking about my left hip going back and up. Hopefully I do that enough times that it becomes natural and a part of my swing, but I don't want to think about mechanics on the course. That makes me Consciously Incompetent when practicing?

[Lihu]

29 minutes ago, iacas said:

No. I don't think you get it at all now.

Very little of it is intellectual.

Ah.

Quote

So the golfer keeps working. He knows what he's doing wrong, how to fix it, and eventually when doing drills or actively thinking about a feeling, he can do it (as well as he can be expected to, which may not be perfect). He's become consciously competent.

I was going by this example in the original post.

However, as I mentioned in my previous post, I'm now guessing there is a lot more to this than I originally interpreted. . .

The problem is I can't really relate something like golf to let's say skiing. I can carve an intermediate slope and "enjoy the view". On more difficult slopes I need my full attention, but there are times when I can do everything unconsciously. While it seems like there are no cases like this in golf. Any shot I make takes my fullest attention. I just can't see myself "watching the scenery" while in the middle of a golf swing? I don't think there is any golf swing/putting equivalent to skiing intermediate slopes per se?

The example you gave of instructing while swinging is pretty good, but it still pertains to the golf swing and the mechanics behind it rather than some "other" activity. Doesn't this impact the definition of "unconscious competence" somewhat?

EDIT:

19 minutes ago, CarlSpackler said:

This almost seems like a muti-faceted concept when it comes to the golf swing. On one hand, I am Unconsciously Competent in that I can walk up to a ball and swing away without giving it a thought. Those who play with me often comment about how I step to the ball and fire away. As a matter of fact, when I stop and think about it is when I usually run into trouble. This is not to say that my swing isn't full of faults, but I can hit a golf ball without thinking about it. A professional wouldn't think that I'm competent in the least, but I suppose you could say the same thing about Lance Armstrong watching me ride a bike or Michael Phelps watching me swing.

On the next level, I am trying to improve or change something about my swing during practice. I am thinking about my left hip going back and up. Hopefully I do that enough times that it becomes natural and a part of my swing, but I don't want to think about mechanics on the course. That makes me Consciously Incompetent when practicing?

Ah, this makes sense.

For me, I think about what I am going to do in my swing before doing it every time. That's where we differ. So, I'm definitely "conscious" in contrast to you. However, I don't think during my swing, I rehearse it in my mind (and during my practice swing) prior to the swing.

I think I'm getting it now?

[iacas]

3 hours ago, CarlSpackler said:

This almost seems like a muti-faceted concept when it comes to the golf swing. On one hand, I am Unconsciously Competent in that I can walk up to a ball and swing away without giving it a thought. Those who play with me often comment about how I step to the ball and fire away. As a matter of fact, when I stop and think about it is when I usually run into trouble. This is not to say that my swing isn't full of faults, but I can hit a golf ball without thinking about it. A professional wouldn't think that I'm competent in the least, but I suppose you could say the same thing about Lance Armstrong watching me ride a bike or Michael Phelps watching me swing.

You're consciously competent at your golf swing. Yeah.

3 hours ago, CarlSpackler said:

On the next level, I am trying to improve or change something about my swing during practice. I am thinking about my left hip going back and up. Hopefully I do that enough times that it becomes natural and a part of my swing, but I don't want to think about mechanics on the course. That makes me Consciously Incompetent when practicing?

When you do it wrong, you're consciously incompetent at that piece.

When you do it right, you're consciously competent at that piece.

The goal is to become unconsciously competent at that piece, so you can move on to the next piece.

[GolfLug]

I guess a fairly singular purposeful thing/piece has to be defined as competence for each person at a given point of time to apply the stages usefully. If not, it just becomes a pedantic thinkcersize. Hell, I am unconsciously competent at brushing my teeth every morning and night. Big whoop.

For me currently competence is a consistent shot shape. All my focus and priority is geared around achieving that. My scores unmistakably mirror it.  

1 hour ago, iacas said:

You're consciously competent at your golf swing. Yeah.

When you do it wrong, you're consciously incompetent at that piece.

When you do it right, you're consciously competent at that piece.

The goal is to become unconsciously competent at that piece, so you can move on to the next piece.

 

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

You're consciously competent at your golf swing. Yeah.

When you do it wrong, you're consciously incompetent at that piece.

When you do it right, you're consciously competent at that piece.

The goal is to become unconsciously competent at that piece, so you can move on to the next piece.

The lights in my head are finally starting to turn on. . .

 

[CarlSpackler]

54 minutes ago, iacas said:

You're consciously competent at your golf swing. Yeah.

When you do it wrong, you're consciously incompetent at that piece.

When you do it right, you're consciously competent at that piece.

The goal is to become unconsciously competent at that piece, so you can move on to the next piece.

I imagine there are unknown pieces that I unconsciously incompetent at. There are other shots that I'm unconsciously competent in like a low punch shot, but others like flop shot that I know HOW to do but execution is 50/50. I supposed that would be consciously incompetent  

12 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

I guess a fairly singular purposeful thing/piece has to be defined as competence for each person at a given point of time to apply the stages usefully. If not, it just becomes a pedantic thinkcersize. Hell, I am unconsciously competent at brushing my teeth every morning and night. Big whoop.

For me currently competence is a consistent shot shape. All my focus and priority is geared around achieving that. My scores unmistakably mirror it.  

I thought so too, but when I visited a new hygienist down here, she suggested a different floss and technique that was a vast improvement over what I had been doing. Just like the golf swing, even the act of brushing your teeth can be improved. 

[GolfLug]

Just now, CarlSpackler said:

I imagine there are unknown pieces that I unconsciously incompetent at. There are other shots that I'm unconsciously competent in like a low punch shot, but others like flop shot that I know HOW to do but execution is 50/50. I supposed that would be consciously incompetent  

I thought so too, but when I visited a new hygienist down here, she suggested a different floss and technique that was a vast improvement over what I had been doing. Just like the golf swing, even the act of brushing your teeth can be improved. 

Don't have a single stain on ANY of my teeth. Never have had as much as a cavity and I am almost 42. Never needed fake whitening. I am going to DECLARE myself verrry competent at brushing my teeth. ...

As a bonus, I will throw in super competence at daily flossing too. So there...

[iacas]

1 hour ago, CarlSpackler said:

I imagine there are unknown pieces that I unconsciously incompetent at. There are other shots that I'm unconsciously competent in like a low punch shot, but others like flop shot that I know HOW to do but execution is 50/50. I supposed that would be consciously incompetent  

I thought so too, but when I visited a new hygienist down here, she suggested a different floss and technique that was a vast improvement over what I had been doing. Just like the golf swing, even the act of brushing your teeth can be improved. 

Yeah, I was too quick in writing out what I wrote.

By "piece" that assumes you know what your priority piece (for that golf swing, which may be your "normal" golf swing) is.

2 hours ago, iacas said:

When you do it wrong, you're either consciously or unconsciously incompetent at that piece, depending on whether you know what the piece is or not.

If you know what the mechanics are to hit a proper flop, and you have to work on them, you're either consciously incompetent or competent depending on the shot (overall you'd probably lean one way or the other).

If you don't know, but know something's wrong, then you're unconsciously incompetent - you can hit it better and you don't know how.

Does that clear things up @GolfLug and @CarlSpackler?

[CarlSpackler]

51 minutes ago, iacas said:

Yeah, I was too quick in writing out what I wrote.

By "piece" that assumes you know what your priority piece (for that golf swing, which may be your "normal" golf swing) is.

If you know what the mechanics are to hit a proper flop, and you have to work on them, you're either consciously incompetent or competent depending on the shot (overall you'd probably lean one way or the other).

If you don't know, but know something's wrong, then you're unconsciously incompetent - you can hit it better and you don't know how.

Does that clear things up @GolfLug and @CarlSpackler?

I think so. My brain is still processing this concept. 

[iacas]

33 minutes ago, CarlSpackler said:

I think so. My brain is still processing this concept. 

It's pretty simple:

- If you don't know about it, you're unconscious.
- If you do know about it, you're conscious of it.

- If you're able to do it, you're competent.
- If you're unable to do it, you're incompetent.

So just about everyone is unconsciously competent at just stepping up and hitting the ball the way they always have.

If you're trying to get your weight farther forward because you don't currently, you know what you're trying to do (conscious) and the times you do it, you're competent, and the times you don't, incompetent. If you can do it every time you think about it and focus on it, you're consciously competent.

[CarlSpackler]

9 minutes ago, iacas said:

It's pretty simple:

- If you don't know about it, you're unconscious.
- If you do know about it, you're conscious of it.

- If you're able to do it, you're competent.
- If you're unable to do it, you're incompetent.

So just about everyone is unconsciously competent at just stepping up and hitting the ball the way they always have.

If you're trying to get your weight farther forward because you don't currently, you know what you're trying to do (conscious) and the times you do it, you're competent, and the times you don't, incompetent. If you can do it every time you think about it and focus on it, you're consciously competent.

Yep. That makes sense. It's more applying it to the swing, the game, different shot types, etc. that I'm pondering. For instance, some courses I've played frequently and don't have to think about which club to pull on certain holes/situations. When I played Eagle Creek last week, it was my first time playing the course. I had to look at the hole map on the scorecard and shoot things like bunkers from the tee to see if I could carry then, so this can be applied to game planning. 

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, CarlSpackler said:

Yep. That makes sense. It's more applying it to the swing, the game, different shot types, etc. that I'm pondering. For instance, some courses I've played frequently and don't have to think about which club to pull on certain holes/situations. When I played Eagle Creek last week, it was my first time playing the course. I had to look at the hole map on the scorecard and shoot things like bunkers from the tee to see if I could carry then, so this can be applied to game planning. 

I guess, yeah. But if you read LSW and apply those concepts, you can be unconsciously competent at it without much effort. And it's one of the cases - because you're not thinking about it during the swing - where even if you're consciously competent it's just as good.  Because who cares if you have to think about your Decision Map when choosing a shot?

[CarlSpackler]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

I guess, yeah. But if you read LSW and apply those concepts, you can be unconsciously competent at it without much effort. And it's one of the cases - because you're not thinking about it during the swing - where even if you're consciously competent it's just as good.  Because who cares if you have to think about your Decision Map when choosing a shot?

I did read it of course, some parts twice. I think I failed the quiz on that portion of the book though. Please don't take my LSW badge away.  

[Double Mocha Man]

If you've played well and you're ready to head to the 19th hole for a gin & tonic you are  unconsciously competent .  Later you may just be unconscious.

[natureboy]

The dividing line between conscious and unconscious competence made me think of Padraig Harrington. I sometimes get the impression that his natural or ingrained humility makes him feel like he always needs to be in his head vs. letting go a bit and trust the impact of his extensive practice to 'take over'.

Easier said than done, of course.

Edited January 5, 2017 by natureboy