Game Improvement Lofts Again (sorry)

[Midpack]

This exchange is from another thread, but I didn't want to hijack that thread, so I started another. I've seen these claims, but never followed through on the discussion. I'm sure it's old news to most here, but I just joined recently and I promise I'll share my follow up thoughts and quit harping on these points thereafter:

OP: The things I read about GI irons that gives me pause are b) the jacked up lofts, c) harsher feel (forged vs cast?)

Response: b) Lower CoG with traditional lofts cause the ball to launch too high with too much spin, affecting trajectory and control. If the ball is hit too high with too much spin, you can actually lose distance.

c) I'm not sure where you get this from. All clubs feel harsh when they aren't hit from the sweetspot and GI irons are designed to effectively increase the size of the sweetspot, making them "softer" over a wider area on the face. Most people complain about GI irons not giving enough feedback because they mask the feel of mishits to some degree.

The whole forged vs cast thing is old school nonsense. I've read articles that say most people doing blind tests couldn't tell the two apart.

Follow up: b) I keep reading lower CoG has increased launch angles so the lower lofts are necessary to compensate. However, my old (forged CB) 7-iron has a loft of 35° and I hit it 150 yards. Most modern GI 7-irons have lofts from 30°-31° and hit about 160 yards for me. BUT the modern 8-iron in that same set has a loft of 34.5° and I hit it about 150 yards. So it sure looks to me like they've just stamped a 7-iron with an 8 to make players think they hit longer. Makes it hard to believe there's any real distance in the modern sets when the same loft goes the same distance as my old clubs.

c) IME there can be a marked difference between the feel of clubs, and that's important to me, more than added distance. There are some clubs that feel awful to me even when I hit them dead center. I am sure it's not just forged vs cast, but I sure wish I could identify which GI clubs still have some of that soft feel and which have that harsh, loud feel no matter how well you it it.

Edited August 20, 2017 by Midpack

[iacas]

The GI 7I launches at about the same angle as the MB 7I. To do that with a lower CG they have to reduce the loft.

Low CG = high launch, lower spin, often more distance given the launch angle.

[WUTiger]

21 hours ago, iacas said:

The GI 7I launches at about the same angle as the MB 7I. To do that with a lower CG they have to reduce the loft.

Any indication that SGI clubs have very low lofts to account for the fact that many high HDCP players tend to flip their iron shots?

[billchao]

On 8/20/2017 at 0:41 PM, Midpack said:

I keep reading lower CoG has increased launch angles so the lower lofts are necessary to compensate. However, my old (forged CB) 7-iron has a loft of 35° and I hit it 150 yards. Most modern GI 7-irons have lofts from 30°-31° and hit about 160 yards for me. BUT the modern 8-iron in that same set has a loft of 34.5° and I hit it about 150 yards. So it sure looks to me like they've just stamped a 7-iron with an 8 to make players think they hit longer. Makes it hard to believe there's any real distance in the modern sets when the same loft goes the same distance as my old clubs.

As @iacas stated, the 7 irons launch at the same angle despite the GI irons having stronger lofts and going farther. This allows you to hit one less club as your 150 club which has the added advantage of being easier to hit because you are hitting a higher club. Balls launched more vertically tend to move less laterally.

On 8/20/2017 at 0:41 PM, Midpack said:

IME there can be a marked difference between the feel of clubs, and that's important to me, more than added distance. There are some clubs that feel awful to me even when I hit them dead center. I am sure it's not just forged vs cast, but I sure wish I could identify which GI clubs still have some of that soft feel and which have that harsh, loud feel no matter how well you it it.

Feel is subjective and shaft plays a part, too. You'd have to demo a bunch of combinations and get an idea of what you like, or better yet, get a good fitting so you can find what you like and what performs best for your game.

---

Honestly @Midpack I don't know you or your game and I certainly don't have a vested interest in whether or not you purchase new clubs. If you don't want to play GI irons, that's fine. I know a number of players who use 20+ year old clubs. 

But you've made a number of posts about this subject and I think you're kind of limiting yourself with these preconceptions about modern club design and GI clubs. Is there a lot of marketing hype? Sure. There's also real advancement being made.

BTW those claims that X golfer increased 20 yards by changing to new equipment? They're based off of fitting players into new clubs who were using old equipment that's poorly fit for them.

[Midpack]

Yes, I'm very sorry, probably shouldn't have started the thread but in considering new clubs I can't get past my old 7-iron plays the same distance as a modern 8-iron and the lofts are the same. Of course a modern 7-iron with 4-5 deg less loft than mine hits longer (without a change in CoG), that's no surprise. But I'll keep my opinion to myself, and maybe buy new GI clubs and see for myself. I'm just afraid of spending $900-1200 only to find I might as well of kept my old forged CB's. I don't mind spending money at all, but I hate just wasting it...

Edited August 21, 2017 by Midpack

[Piz]

The questions to ask might be...What game and what improvement?  If you are comfortable, and familiar, with your current trajectories; learning a new set of numbers may not seem particularly useful.  There is a lot to be said for knowing what to expect.

[billchao]

37 minutes ago, Midpack said:

I can't get past my old 7-iron plays the same distance as a modern 8-iron and the lofts are the same. Of course a modern 7-iron with 4-5 deg less loft than mine hits longer (without a change in CoG), that's no surprise.

There's a lot more to distance than static loft and there's a lot more to trajectory than distance.

How high are you hitting it? Spin rate? Descent angle? What kind of ball speed losses do you get on off center hits?

37 minutes ago, Midpack said:

But I'll keep my opinion to myself, and maybe buy new GI clubs and see for myself. I'm just afraid of spending $900-1200 only to find I might as well of kept my old forged CB's. I don't mind spending money at all, but I hate just wasting it...

I wouldnt recommend spending $900 on clubs just to test them. Get a good fitting, even if you have to pay for one. Demo clubs. Maybe you'll like new GI clubs. Maybe you're just as well off with your old CBs. Maybe you'll fit into MB. Who knows? Better than buying a set to try out.

[Midpack]

2 hours ago, Piz said:

The questions to ask might be...What game and what improvement?  If you are comfortable, and familiar, with your current trajectories; learning a new set of numbers may not seem particularly useful.  There is a lot to be said for knowing what to expect.

I'm comfortable with my distances. I hit irons higher than anyone I know, so hitting higher (as many say low CoG GI irons apparently offer) would probably be an issue for me at least on windy days. The only reason I'm looking is I don't hit the center of the face like I used to, and may never again, so GI sounds like it might fit my current/future game better than my old 385 MPF irons.

Edited August 21, 2017 by Midpack

[Piz]

Sounds like higher MOI is what you are after.  That can be found in a longer blade.

[Shindig]

20 hours ago, billchao said:

BTW those claims that X golfer increased 20 yards by changing to new equipment? They're based off of fitting players into new clubs who were using old equipment that's poorly fit for them.

Yup.  The Pings I'm ordering, I hit the 7-iron on a monitor 150.  My 6, same loft, I say I hit it 135-140, but if my target is 140 out and is the middle of the green, I'm probably missing short if I hit my 6.

BTW, Midpack -- as Piz says, longer blades can be more forgiving if that's what you're looking for. Maltby MMB-17s might be something to look into.

[onthehunt526]

I just watched Rick Shiels review on the new 718 AP1 irons. Yes the launch angles are the same between players irons and GI irons. The CG is definitely lower and to the rear in GI irons. It's not much more than a few millimeters vertically. But it does make a difference.

For instance, the AP1 PW is 43° and AP2 is 46° both launch about the same. Spin a little higher with the AP2. Peak height higher with the AP1. Descent angle higher with the AP1.

@Midpack It doesn't matter the static loft of the number or letter stamped on the bottom of the club. Knowing how far you hit that club. If you want to compare apples to apples, compare two clubs of similar loft when testing. So if the store or fitting center has 7-irons in GI clubs to test, take your 6-iron to test against it.

Irons are much more forgiving than they were at the start of the 21st Century. And the golf balls have gotten better as well. Longer blade length might help you out.

[Midpack]

13 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

@Midpack It doesn't matter the static loft of the number or letter stamped on the bottom of the club. Knowing how far you hit that club. If you want to compare apples to apples, compare two clubs of similar loft when testing. So if the store or fitting center has 7-irons in GI clubs to test, take your 6-iron to test against it.

Irons are much more forgiving than they were at the start of the 21st Century. And the golf balls have gotten better as well. Longer blade length might help you out.

That's exactly what I've done, compare my 6-iron to the 7-iron for the new set where lofts are similar. And lengths are about the same, that's my point. Unfortunately hitting on a launch monitor doesn't give me a good sense of how they'll play on a course. For example if I hit even higher, or run longer (less spin) that would be unwelcome.  Or if somehow dispersion is worse, though that seems highly unlikely.

But I'll probably bite the bullet and buy Mizuno JPX900 Forged or Hot Metals. Though two of the Titleist 718's might be appealing too.

Thanks for your patience.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Midpack