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1 hour ago, iacas said:

They're not arguments. They're experiences.

Your experiences don't make much sense to me, either. In my experience, a single digit guy playing against three higher handicappers in a four-player skins game loses a lot more than he wins. Even at 3:1 that's a high enough ratio. One of them will typically par almost every hole.

In my experience.

And Lihu's. And just about everyone else but you who is commenting on handicaps in skins games…

My experiences were with mixed caps, not all high caps against just one low.  Any given group could have a 6, 10, 13, and 20 or similar random combination.  With that sort of a mix, wheeling off the low guy worked for us.  I've never said that one low cap against several high caps was a good idea.  

Edited by Fourputt

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2 hours ago, Fourputt said:

What difference does it make?  You will still be giving or receiving strokes per the handicap system, which is designed to work under those conditions.  Your arguments, and Erik's, simply make no sense whatever to me.  I once shot 73 as a 17 handicap.  I also shot 104 as a 10 handicap.  On the same course, 2 years apart in the club championship.  Both were aberrations. 

I've never "cleaned up" as a bogey golfer in skins, that only happened when I was on top of my game.  I have had days since my game dropped back to bogey when I didn't get a single skin, and I had the same thing happen as a 9-10 cap.  I've played skins in the whole range, and I've played against players from 4 to 30 caps, in the same fourball.  Never seen a relationship to winning or losing as long as we all had honest handicaps playing our typical games.  When someone plays outside of his norm (better or worse, it happens both ways) , then you will get results that are outside of the mean.  

As you get better at golf the variation also decreases, and a 16 or 17 handicap is not going to vary as much as a 36 handicap. A 36 handicap has the ability to shoot roughly 36 over very likely, at best while a bogey can shoot, as you demonstrated, a 73. Not good odds for the scratch golfer in a skins game.

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56 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

My experiences were with mixed caps, not all high caps against just one low.  Any given group could have a 6, 10, 13, and 20 or similar random combination.  With that sort of a mix, wheeling off the low guy worked for us.  I've never said that one low cap against several high caps was a good idea.  

FWIW I said single digits, which could be an 8 or a 9.

And even if it's a 6, 10, 13, 20… the 20 has a notable edge, in my experience. He'll win a hole or two with a bogey net par, and any pars are quite likely winners.

Skins aren't a good match for handicaps in my experience.

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Interesting discussion(s) here.  I agree the handicap system doesn't work very well for a small group skins game.  The handicap system was designed to permit two players to compete in a stroke play match on a "more of less" equal footing.  When handicaps are used in other formats or in large groups it doesn't seem to work nearly as well in obtaining the "equal footing" goal.  At least that is my experiences.

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2 hours ago, ghalfaire said:

Interesting discussion(s) here.  I agree the handicap system doesn't work very well for a small group skins game.  The handicap system was designed to permit two players to compete in a stroke play match on a "more of less" equal footing.  When handicaps are used in other formats or in large groups it doesn't seem to work nearly as well in obtaining the "equal footing" goal.  At least that is my experiences.

Just an aside, but you are mixing your formats.  There is stroke play and there is match play, and the USGA handicap system works fine for both when used per the manual.  It works okay for a fourball as well as 2 man.

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The only truly fair way to play any game is to give no more than a couple strokes and play someone whose game is closely matched to yours. Once you get above a stroke a side things get iffy.

The GHIN handicap system does its best, but if you think its actually a way for people with a large difference in index to play a match you are mistaken. The first problem with the GHIN system is the human factor. People don't follow the rules for inputting scores or just blatantly cheat. Second, even if everybody inputted their scores completely and correctly, a large difference in index means the players have much different chances of shooting good or bad scores. Lower handicaps are more consistent whereas a higher handicap could shoot 10 over or 10 under their handicaps on any given day.

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17 minutes ago, NM Golf said:

The only truly fair way to play any game is to give no more than a couple strokes and play someone whose game is closely matched to yours. Once you get above a stroke a side things get iffy.

The GHIN handicap system does its best, but if you think its actually a way for people with a large difference in index to play a match you are mistaken. The first problem with the GHIN system is the human factor. People don't follow the rules for inputting scores or just blatantly cheat. Second, even if everybody inputted their scores completely and correctly, a large difference in index means the players have much different chances of shooting good or bad scores. Lower handicaps are more consistent whereas a higher handicap could shoot 10 over or 10 under their handicaps on any given day.

This is highly off topic, but kind of pertinent. . .

I know this sounds like cheating, but the typical player in a few of the local clubs doesn't take ESC to score their handicaps. They input total strokes, and only play "competitive rounds". They all understand that for the purposes of handicap they should be using ESC, but the fact that everyone does it makes ESC meaningless in local competitions.

For those who don't know how it's supposed to be done, and why we are bringing it up. . .

Quote
Course Handicap Maximum Number
9 or less Double Bogey
10-19 7
20-29 8
30-39 9
40 and above 10

If you scored a non-competitive handicap round, you're supposed to take no more than a 7 as a 10-19 handicap. However, in a competition, you take total strokes.

I'm guessing it's still okay to post the total number of strokes without ESC because they simply turn every round into a "competitive" round?

So, it's really tough for lower handicaps to give strokes to higher handicaps who even think the 0.96 factor built into the GHIN system is unfair.

Edited by Lihu

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1 hour ago, Fourputt said:

Just an aside, but you are mixing your formats.  There is stroke play and there is match play, and the USGA handicap system works fine for both when used per the manual.  It works okay for a fourball as well as 2 man.

I probably said more than I intended and was intending to say that the handicap system doesn't work well for skins games.  Yes the handicaps work in fourball groups well enough I didn't mean to imply that they only work for two man stroke play.  I only meant that the further you get away from that scenario, the less "equal" the footing becomes.  An extreme example is a tournament with a 100 players and large handicap variations leaves little chance for a low handicap win. 

Edited by ghalfaire
not clear

Butch

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29 minutes ago, Lihu said:

This is highly off topic, but kind of pertinent. . .

I know this sounds like cheating, but the typical player in a few of the local clubs doesn't take ESC to score their handicaps. They input total strokes, and only play "competitive rounds". They all understand that for the purposes of handicap they should be using ESC, but the fact that everyone does it makes ESC meaningless in local competitions.

For those who don't know how it's supposed to be done, and why we are bringing it up. . .

If you scored a non-competitive handicap round, you're supposed to take no more than a 7 as a 10-19 handicap. However, in a competition, you take total strokes.

I'm guessing it's still okay to post the total number of strokes without ESC because they simply turn every round into a "competitive" round?

So, it's really tough for lower handicaps to give strokes to higher handicaps who even think the 0.96 factor built into the GHIN system is unfair.

Just talked to one of my friends. He said in match play they can concede holes and basically take the "most likely score". This is less strokes per hole, but could still add up in the end.

Edited by Lihu

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1 hour ago, Lihu said:

This is highly off topic, but kind of pertinent. . .

It was mildly off topic at best. ;-)

This post, on the other hand, is highly :offtopic:. See the difference. :-P

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Just now, NM Golf said:

It was mildly off topic at best. ;-)

This post, on the other hand, is highly :offtopic:. See the difference. :-P

:-D

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5 hours ago, Lihu said:

This is highly off topic, but kind of pertinent. . .

I know this sounds like cheating, but the typical player in a few of the local clubs doesn't take ESC to score their handicaps. They input total strokes, and only play "competitive rounds". They all understand that for the purposes of handicap they should be using ESC, but the fact that everyone does it makes ESC meaningless in local competitions.

For those who don't know how it's supposed to be done, and why we are bringing it up. . .

If you scored a non-competitive handicap round, you're supposed to take no more than a 7 as a 10-19 handicap. However, in a competition, you take total strokes.

I'm guessing it's still okay to post the total number of strokes without ESC because they simply turn every round into a "competitive" round?

So, it's really tough for lower handicaps to give strokes to higher handicaps who even think the 0.96 factor built into the GHIN system is unfair.

No matter how you flavor it, it IS cheating.  When not managed according to the system used by others, it means those handicaps are not portable, which is the whole point of the USGA system.  Handicapping in golf has been around for a long time, but it used to be purely a local thing.  The handicaps maintained at Club A didn't work against players from Club B because there was no attempt to accurately rate the courses against each other.  The USGA system is a relatively recent innovation, and was created specifically to make handicaps work no matter where one played or who he played against.  The system certainly has it's shortcomings, but it still works miles better than no system, and that's what those clubs you refer to have.     

4 hours ago, ghalfaire said:

I probably said more than I intended and was intending to say that the handicap system doesn't work well for skins games.  Yes the handicaps work in fourball groups well enough I didn't mean to imply that they only work for two man stroke play.  I only meant that the further you get away from that scenario, the less "equal" the footing becomes.  An extreme example is a tournament with a 100 players and large handicap variations leaves little chance for a low handicap win. 

In a tournament with 100 players, if they aren't flighted by handicaps, then they aren't using the system the way it's designed to be used.  My club would have 4 or 5 flights with that many players (most of our tournaments have 140-160 players, depending on format), and players would only be competing head to head within their flight.

Edited by Fourputt

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3 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

No matter how you flavor it, it IS cheating.  When not managed according to the system used by others, it means those handicaps are not portable, which is the whole point of the USGA system.  Handicapping in golf has been around for a long time, but it used to be purely a local thing.  The handicaps maintained at Club A didn't work against players from Club B because there was no attempt to accurately rate the courses against each other.  The USGA system is a relatively recent innovation, and was created specifically to make handicaps work no matter where one played or who he played against.  The system certainly has it's shortcomings, but it still works miles better than no system, and that's what those clubs you refer to have.     

In a tournament with 100 players, if they aren't flighted by handicaps, then they aren't using the system the way it's designed to be used.  My club would have 4 or 5 flights with that many players (most of our tournaments have 140-160 players, depending on format), and players would only be competing head to head within their flight.

Yes, I assumed the incorrect thing I was told. They do the “most likely score” on conceded holes.

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@Lihu, you and your buddies have this ESC thing wrong. You are supposed to post every round played within the rules of golf (or at least 13 holes), including the ESC adjustment. That goes for "competitive rounds" and tournaments too.

In other words, your actual score in those (and really in all rounds) is what you actually shoot, or total strokes as you call it, but your posted score in the GHIN system is the ESC score. See? Not at all what you described and no excuses of "competitive rounds" for your buddies...

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23 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

@Lihu, you and your buddies have this ESC thing wrong. You are supposed to post every round played within the rules of golf (or at least 13 holes), including the ESC adjustment. That goes for "competitive rounds" and tournaments too.

In other words, your actual score in those (and really in all rounds) is what you actually shoot, or total strokes as you call it, but your posted score in the GHIN system is the ESC score. See? Not at all what you described and no excuses of "competitive rounds" for your buddies...

Agreed.

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On 11/8/2017 at 6:36 AM, DaveP043 said:

I've read that using a percentage of handicap, somewhere between 2/3 and 3/4, tends to make things more even. 

In some skins games, players only get 1/2 stroke on par 3 holes. This evens things out a bit for the low HDCP player.

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I am not so sure about how you guys play skins but in my country there are 2 way to do it. 

1. Play for holes. 

Win one hole, you win 1 skin. Near pin and get a par 1 skin, 1 longest 1 skin, birdie or sandy par 1 skin etc.. water hazard and you get 1 skin penalty...

But if I'm a 14 handicap and play with a +1 handicap he would have to give me one stroke from index 1 to 9 ( 14-1=13, 13*0.7=9.1 so it is from 1 to 9). 

2. Play for strokes.

Everyholes if you win by one stroke you get one skin, 2 strokes 2 skins etc 

But in the beginning I am get my 13 skins money first if I am play a +1 handicap guy. 

This is what Korean guys used to play and we learn from them. 

3. Everything

 Literally everything above.

But after all skin games favor higher handicaps players I think, and the key here is have the right handicap when playing with players you hardly know hehe

 

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Remember handicap is not average strokes over par, it is a percentage of average strokes over par, like 85% or thereabouts.  Theoretically an 19 handicap would shoot 24 over par while a 6 handicap would shoot 7 over; advantage to the 6 handicapper.  Usually gross and net are two separate bets;

 

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