Does Shaft Flex Make a Difference?

[mvmac]

I think shaft flex does make a difference. What tends to be overblown in golf equipment is what a certain kind of shaft can do for your shots. Once you're in the right flex, the kind of shaft is only going to help so much.

I was talking with a fitter a few months ago and he said there is no such thing as a "low spin" shaft. It has to do with how the shaft feels to the golfer and how the golfer responds to the feel to change the shot data. I don't know if that's 100% but I think a big part of finding the right shaft is how the golfer "responds" to the shaft and head combo. Some players like there to some "play" in the shaft while other want it to feel boardy so they can swing hard and not have it go left. Again we're talking about feel and not what really happens or what really causes things to happen.

This video illustrates shaft flex, swing speed and the influence on creating club head speed.

 

[saevel25]

12 minutes ago, mvmac said:

I don't know if that's 100% but I think a big part of finding the right shaft is how the golfer "responds" to the shaft and head combo. Some players like there to some "play" in the shaft while other want it to feel boardy so they can swing hard and not have it go left. Again we're talking about feel and not what really happens or what really causes things to happen.

I agree.

You can see this in online golf shaft selector on the manufacture's websites. They all seem to have the question, "What is your tempo" or "How do you load the club".

They understand that it just isn't about swing speed.

[Moxley]

Hi, looking to buy a mini driver as i struggle to hit a FW off the tee (too small head size). This limits me to just a few 2nd hand clubs, and the only one I can find in the loft I want (16 deg) is a 'lite'/m-flex shaft.  I generally use regular flex shafts , as I'm a 34 year old male, and while I'm definitely not a big hitter or fast swinger, I'm obviously not as slow as the senior folk that will be using the flexible shafts. 

Numbers wise, my typical error free driver shot is about 220, and 5 iron about 155. My natural tendency is to leak shots to the right, although it's always a bit more variable with my graphite clubs. 

I know the theoretical impact of a shaft too flexy (more draw/hook spin, higher trajectory) , but what I'm really wondering is what order of magnitude we're talking from a shaft just 1 notch too flexible. A few yards left in a fairly consistent manner (not a bad thing!), or the potential to introduce occasional ball losing duck hooks? 

Any thoughts, anecdotal or otherwise, would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Matthew

 

 

[Moxley]

Note : just spotted this thread : 

 

Which sort of deals with this. Apologies therefore for creation of a separate topic  - if somebody wants to combine my response into that thread I'm cool with that. 

[iacas]

4 hours ago, Moxley said:

Hi, looking to buy a mini driver as i struggle to hit a FW off the tee (too small head size). This limits me to just a few 2nd hand clubs, and the only one I can find in the loft I want (16 deg) is a 'lite'/m-flex shaft.  I generally use regular flex shafts , as I'm a 34 year old male, and while I'm definitely not a big hitter or fast swinger, I'm obviously not as slow as the senior folk that will be using the flexible shafts.

If you find the head you want, you can always replace the shaft but keep the clubhead.

[Penleyguy]

On 12/18/2017 at 2:16 PM, mvmac said:

was talking with a fitter a few months ago and he said there is no such thing as a "low spin" shaft. It has to do with how the shaft feels to the golfer and how the golfer responds to the feel to change the shot data. I don't know if that's 100% but I think a big part of finding the right shaft is how the golfer "responds" to the shaft and head combo

As a person with extensive shaft industry experience, I can unequivocally state that the fitter who said this is mistaken! There is a shaft company that does in fact make shafts that can, do and will control spin. This company makes shafts that control inconsistencies from swing variations and has the capability of controlling incremental bend so as to “tune” shaft performance by section to fit without loss of feel and without tipping. it’s called Tip To Butt Aspect Ratio (TBAR). There is a HUGE difference in the various high end shafts out there. Shaft technology, as well as the materials used to make a shaft dictates performance. It matters, it makes a big difference in feel, performance, repeatability and consistency. The technology built into the tip sections of the shafts i’m referring to, is very advanced and in fact, does influence launch angle, spin rate and off center strike consequence. Shaft technology is advancing rapidly (mostly by one company in San Diego) and materials are being developed that allows this company to build higher performance shafts. Clubheads pretty much have reached their performance limit under current rules and sales are driven mostly by marketing efforts. Shafts is a whole different deal, it makes a very big difference in performance. You can take any clubhead and improve feel, consistency and overall performance, including spin rate! To use an audiophile analogy...if you take the finest stereo receiver and put lousy speakers, it’s going to sound bad but if you take the worst receiver and hook up the absolute best speakers out there, it’s still going to have good sound...you can take any driver head and put a good shaft and it will play well but if you take the best head and put a garbage shaft, it will not perform.

[Club Rat]

Welcome to TST @Penleyguy It always good to hear from those in the golf industry that can provide intel from behind the scenes.
Penley has made some great products for Long Drive competitors through the years and I imagine they still do.
While not a household name among average golfer, I was surprised they never achieved any notoriety with PGA players.

I agree with you 100% that the shaft is vital to obtaining the best performance for all clubs.

[Penleyguy]

3 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

Welcome to TST @Penleyguy It always good to hear from those in the golf industry that can provide intel from behind the scenes.
Penley has made some great products for Long Drive competitors through the years and I imagine they still do.
While not a household name among average golfer, I was surprised they never achieved any notoriety with PGA players.

I agree with you 100% that the shaft is vital to obtaining the best performance for all clubs.

Thanks.

Actually, we’ve had over 100 Shafts in play on the PGA Tour over the last several years. The biggest being Jack Nicklaus back when he still played but many many other like Phil Mickelson, VJ Sing, the Bryant brothers, John Jacobs, John Daly, Joe Durant, John Huh, Steve Surry and a bunch more. It’s just that we are a family owned business that focuses on manufacturing the best products in the USA and not being the biggest marketer for volume and are no longer making shafts for big OEM’s who are price driven, not quality driven. 

 

Long drive is coming back now that The Golf Chanel/NBC owns them.

The Shaft world is changing...for the better. There is some quality stuff out there and that’s good for golf and good for Golfers!

[tomvk77]

I think it sure makes a difference.

I think it's just as important as the right club head. Specially with todays woods the right setting.

The right shaft gives the best ball speeds and the best distance. That's why you always should get fitted.

 

[arturo28mx]

My experience: shaft flex makes a difference but shaft weight makes an even greater difference. First find the right shaft weight for you, then worry about flex.

[klineka]

On 12/18/2017 at 3:16 PM, mvmac said:

I was talking with a fitter a few months ago and he said there is no such thing as a "low spin" shaft. It has to do with how the shaft feels to the golfer and how the golfer responds to the feel to change the shot data. I don't know if that's 100% but I think a big part of finding the right shaft is how the golfer "responds" to the shaft and head combo. Some players like there to some "play" in the shaft while other want it to feel boardy so they can swing hard and not have it go left. Again we're talking about feel and not what really happens or what really causes things to happen.

Curious to hear yours and others thoughts on what I'm about to say.

So I purchased a MD3 gap wedge from Callawaypreowned, and it came with a KBS Tour C-Taper shaft. I love the feel of the shaft and it feels completely different compared to the MD3 lob wedge I have with a different shaft. 

The KBS Tour C-Taper is listed as a low launch, low spin shaft. I have been thinking about getting this shaft when I get new irons as well, but wasnt sure how much of a difference the "Low launch, low spin" claims from KBS actually make on the shots. I love the feel of the shaft, and get normal height with a 50 degree wedge, but I wouldnt want a 6 or 7 iron to come out super low if I got these shafts since I already hit my irons somewhat lower to begin with.

One thing I was thinking of doing was pairing that shaft with a higher launching/stronger lofted iron like the M2. I think the strong lofts should negate any of the "low launch" characteristics of the shaft.

Thoughts?

[Penleyguy]

2 hours ago, arturo28mx said:

My experience: shaft flex makes a difference but shaft weight makes an even greater difference. First find the right shaft weight for you, then worry about flex.

Totally agree and would add...a little heavier shaft, if it’s a quality (I have a certain brand in mind) shaft, may be a good thing for you. Weight in Composite shafts is often used as a marketing tool. Don’t be fooled into thinking you must have less weight...maybe a lighter shaft works best for you but don’t rule out trying one that’s a little heavier. You may find you can go heavier weight and softer flex, which, if it’s a good shaft, will recover consistently and the weight will add to control. Most Lighter weight shafts lack control so stiffer materials are mixed in to add strength which can equal a “boardy” feel. Not the case with all. Explore heavier shafts and ask questions and you might find player better golf with some extra shaft weight!

[Club Rat]

3 hours ago, klineka said:

but I wouldnt want a 6 or 7 iron to come out super low if I got these shafts since I already hit my irons somewhat lower to begin with.

Tipping Shafts is often required to achieve a desired ball flight.
Nowadays, fitters and club builders refer tipping as "Stepping" the shafts.
This is preformed by trimming the tip and butt ends of the shafts.

Case being, to achieve a higher flight, they would often recommend a "soft step"
A "hard step" would achieve a lower ball flight.

Club Builders often "Frequency Match" iron sets in a similar manner. 

http://www.golfclubshaftreview.com/hard-stepping--soft-stepping.html

Quote

Parallel & Taper-Tip Shafts

There are two ends of the shaft to consider. The butt end (the end to which the grip is fitted) and the tip which fits into the club-head. There are two different types of tip, parallel and taper-tip.
The parallel-tip shaft is a constant diameter from the last step down to the tip of the shaft. The idea of this is that one shaft can be manufactured to fit all irons and one shaft can be manufactured to fit all woods. To obtain the correct flex with a parallel-tipped shaft, the shaft is cut from the tip end at the appropriate point to achieve the correct flex. Then the shaft is cut from the butt end to achieve the desired length. The taper-tip shaft, as the name indicates, tapers down from the last step in the shaft. Taper-tip shafts are manufactured to the correct length and flex for each club so it is important that the correct shaft is fitted to the corresponding club. A 3 iron shaft would fit into an 8 iron, for example, but it would play far too soft in flex and would be too long. To obtain the desired length for a taper-tipped shaft, the club should be cut to length from the butt end, after the tip end has been fitted into the hosel of the club-head.

Hard Stepping and Soft Stepping

Hard stepping and soft stepping is a way changing the flex of a shaft in a club to obtain an in-between flex which will also produce a slightly different ball flight. It works the same way regardless if the shafts are taper or parallel tipped. Depending on which way you go, a regular shaft can be made to feel a little firmer and a stiff shaft can be made to feel a little softer. The most common practice is by removing all the shafts from your matching irons (3 iron through to PW) then put each shaft in either the following or proceeding club.

Soft stepping a set of irons
This is the process of making a clubs shaft a little more flexible. The 3 iron shaft would be fitted into the 4 iron head, the 4 iron shaft into the 5 iron head a so on. The 3 iron would require a new shaft and the PW shaft would be left over. The effect on each club would be that each clubs shaft would be slightly softer than they were originally were and produce a slightly higher ball flight.

Hard stepping a set of irons
This is the process of making a clubs shaft a little stiffer. The PW shaft would be fitted into the 9 iron head, the 9 iron shaft would fit into the 8 iron and so on. The PW would require a new shaft and the 3 iron shaft would be left over. The effect on each club would be that each clubs shaft would be a little bit stiffer than they originally were and produce a slightly lower ball flight.

Remember, when you hard step, the club lengths will decrease. 3 iron will become 4 iron length, 4 iron will become 5 iron length and so on. When you soft step, the club lengths will increase. PW will become 9 iron length, 9 iron will become 8 iron length and so on.
Adjustments will have to be made to the butt end of the shaft if you wish to keep the original clubs length.

 

[tomvk77]

13 hours ago, klineka said:

Curious to hear yours and others thoughts on what I'm about to say.

So I purchased a MD3 gap wedge from Callawaypreowned, and it came with a KBS Tour C-Taper shaft. I love the feel of the shaft and it feels completely different compared to the MD3 lob wedge I have with a different shaft. 

The KBS Tour C-Taper is listed as a low launch, low spin shaft. I have been thinking about getting this shaft when I get new irons as well, but wasnt sure how much of a difference the "Low launch, low spin" claims from KBS actually make on the shots. I love the feel of the shaft, and get normal height with a 50 degree wedge, but I wouldnt want a 6 or 7 iron to come out super low if I got these shafts since I already hit my irons somewhat lower to begin with.

One thing I was thinking of doing was pairing that shaft with a higher launching/stronger lofted iron like the M2. I think the strong lofts should negate any of the "low launch" characteristics of the shaft.

Thoughts?

I think the shaft will have influance on the spin. If you look at the kickpoint of a shaft. With a verry stiff tip you will get less spin? 

However that C-taper shaft is to hard a shaft for me, i do get a low flight but loose to much carry distance, i’m not used to play at links courses so i don’t like that. i use the kbs tour’s in stiff flex inmy irons and love that. 

As for my woods i was fitted in the Aldila Rogue Max stiff shafts.

[klineka]

12 hours ago, Club Rat said:

Tipping Shafts is often required to achieve a desired ball flight.
Nowadays, fitters and club builders refer tipping as "Stepping" the shafts.
This is preformed by trimming the tip and butt ends of the shafts.

Case being, to achieve a higher flight, they would often recommend a "soft step"
A "hard step" would achieve a lower ball flight.

Club Builders often "Frequency Match" iron sets in a similar manner. 

http://www.golfclubshaftreview.com/hard-stepping--soft-stepping.html

 

 

2 hours ago, tomvk77nl said:

I think the shaft will have influance on the spin. If you look at the kickpoint of a shaft. With a verry stiff tip you will get less spin? 

However that C-taper shaft is to hard a shaft for me, i do get a low flight but loose to much carry distance, i’m not used to play at links courses so i don’t like that. i use the kbs tour’s in stiff flex inmy irons and love that. 

As for my woods i was fitted in the Aldila Rogue Max stiff shafts.

thanks for the insights guys! Is it safe to assume that if I really like how the shaft feels in the gap wedge I have now, than I can expect similar feel throughout an iron set with the same shaft? 

I know the best answer is to get custom fit, but I'm afraid of going to somewhere to get custom fit, most likely my local GolfGalaxy, and them not having that particular shaft/head combo I would want to try. I have hit the M2 iron and I know I like it, and I have hit the KBS tour C taper in my wedge and I know I like that, so would it be safe to assume that the combination of those two together would feel/perform as good as I think it should in my head?

[mvmac]

On 1/17/2018 at 1:20 PM, klineka said:

but wasnt sure how much of a difference the "Low launch, low spin" claims from KBS actually make on the shots.

I have the C-Tapers in my wedges and really like them. I certainly notice a "lower" launch compared to what I was using before, PING CFS wedge shafts. Now if you saw me hit a full-ish gap or sand wedge you wouldn't say I hit it low, I still hit it fairly high, just lower than other shafts.

On 1/17/2018 at 1:20 PM, klineka said:

One thing I was thinking of doing was pairing that shaft with a higher launching/stronger lofted iron like the M2. I think the strong lofts should negate any of the "low launch" characteristics of the shaft.

Thoughts?

Strong lofts mean less loft. What would "negate" the lower launch characteristics the most is the center of gravity of the head. Most strong-lofted irons actually launch high, it's how they're designed no matter what shaft you put in there. 

I think that would be a good pairing if your stock ball flight is high or medium-high. A shaft change isn't going to make drastic changes to your ball flight. If you hit it high, you'll still launch it high, just not as much compared to stock 100-110 grams shafts.

I'm actually considering going with C-Taper S+'s in my irons, what I was fit for when I was at PING in September. Currently have Project X 6.0's so there isn't a huge difference. The C-Tapers come off with a touch less spin compared to the 6.0's.

[klineka]

7 hours ago, mvmac said:

I have the C-Tapers in my wedges and really like them. I certainly notice a "lower" launch compared to what I was using before, PING CFS wedge shafts. Now if you saw me hit a full-ish gap or sand wedge you wouldn't say I hit it low, I still hit it fairly high, just lower than other shafts.

Thanks for your thoughts on them! When you were fit with them at PING, from what you remember, did the C-Taper shafts in the irons feel/react similar to the ones you have in your wedges?

If I can expect the same feel through all of the irons, then I will probably just go with that combination when I am ready to buy new irons, since I have hit the M2 on their own and have hit the C-Taper on its own too. I could always take the set in and have someone check the lie angle since it most likely wouldnt be a true custom fitting.

 

[mvmac]

6 hours ago, klineka said:

When you were fit with them at PING, from what you remember, did the C-Taper shafts in the irons feel/react similar to the ones you have in your wedges?

At the time I didn't have the C-Tapers in my wedges but yes they do feel similar. I decided to try them in my wedges first before I changed the shafts in my irons.