General questions about GI and SGI long irons

[onthehunt526]

Uh oh. Shane has another thread about clubs let's run and hide... 

No, this is a thread for a discussion. Not an, "Oh, Shane's asking about set make-up again". 

Originally when OEMs started strengthening lofts in their irons, the long irons were still relatively unchanged. But now, the SGI 3-iron is dead and it's been replaced by a 18 or 19° 4-iron. What is really going on? I understand the whole vertical CG, High COR, high MOI thing. I get it.

But why sell these clubs in a set to high handicappers? They probably would be a good club off the tee, but it violates the Tom Wishon 24/38 rule.

Let the discussion begin.

[allenc]

I just browsed some of the manufacturer’s sites and there are some curiosities going on.  First of all, most GI/SGI irons don’t exhibit this so extremely.  21* is still the most popular 4 iron.

The two companies with something funny going on are Callaway and TaylorMade.  They each have 2 lines of SGI iron, one with the typical 21* 4 iron and one with an 18-19* 4 iron.  And to my way of thinking, it’s the club marketed as MORE SGI that uses the weaker 4 iron.  The Big Bertha (which I think of as Callaway’s flagship SGI name) uses a 21* but the Rogue X uses an 18.5*.  Similar is Taylor Made’s M CGB (marketed as their SGI) with the weaker 4 iron vs their M4 with the super strong 4 iron.

Further comparing the Rogue X vs the M4, there are differences in the way they arrange the set around that strong 4 iron.  Rogue flat out seems to just label each iron with a lower number, then add a PW, GW, and an AW with lofts of typical 9i, PW, GW.  The M4 on the other hand does not add an addition wedge and just spreads out the lofts down to a slightly strong 54* sand wedge.

Edited March 2, 2018 by allenc

[onthehunt526]

28 minutes ago, allenc said:

I just browsed some of the manufacturer’s sites and there are some curiosities going on.  First of all, most GI/SGI irons don’t exhibit this so extremely.  21* is still the most popular 4 iron.

The two companies with something funny going on are Callaway and TaylorMade.  They each have 2 lines of SGI iron, one with the typical 21* 4 iron and one with an 18-19* 4 iron.  And to my way of thinking, it’s the club marketed as MORE SGI that uses the weaker 4 iron.  The Big Bertha (which I think of as Callaway’s flagship SGI name) uses a 21* but the Rogue X uses an 18.5*.  Similar is Taylor Made’s M CGB (marketed as their SGI) with the weaker 4 iron vs their M4 with the super strong 4 iron.

Further comparing the Rogue X vs the M4, there are differences in the way they arrange the set around that strong 4 iron.  Rogue flat out seems to just label each iron with a lower number, then add a PW, GW, and an AW with lofts of typical 9i, PW, GW.  The M4 on the other hand does not add an addition wedge and just spreads out the lofts down to a slightly strong 54* sand wedge.

I honestly think your right 21° is typical GI 4I... I think M3, Rogue, AP1,  F8 and G400 are there or close.

I'm not stating that I have any issues with the strong or super strong lofts in these clubs, I understand the why they do it and some of the engineering and physics involved.

But why not say with the super-jacked irons offer 5-PW, AW, GW as the standard set. Instead of 4-PW, AW? A very few, if any high handicaps will ever be able to hit a 4-iron with any consistency.

[allenc]

1 hour ago, onthehunt526 said:

I honestly think your right 21° is typical GI 4I... I think M3, Rogue, AP1,  F8 and G400 are there or close.

I'm not stating that I have any issues with the strong or super strong lofts in these clubs, I understand the why they do it and some of the engineering and physics involved.

But why not say with the super-jacked irons offer 5-PW, AW, GW as the standard set. Instead of 4-PW, AW? A very few, if any high handicaps will ever be able to hit a 4-iron with any consistency.

I hear ya, I was just throwing some stuff out there.  I’d be surprised if 5-GW wasn’t the typical 8 iron set for the Rogue Xs I mentioned above.  And you’d even start at 6 iron if you wanted to use more hybrids.

One thought is that often the same number hybrid is a club longer than the iron.  In many sets you would want to play both 4i and 4 hybrid for proper gapping.  So maybe Callaway was trying to make that work properly for at least one set.  Of course that is just one set out of about 8 so that doesn’t explain much.

One thing about the M4s, as opposed to the Rogue Xs, is that because they don’t have that extra club it will be pretty hard to use 14 clubs in your set.  You might need a chipper, a 64, or two drivers.  That is exacerbated by the fact that many who play these irons won’t want to play lower lofted fairway woods, since they may have trouble getting more distance than with higher lofted woods.  That implies to me that those really are for casual players and more serious golfers would want to stick to the likes of the G400, Ap1, etc.

[onthehunt526]

4 minutes ago, allenc said:

I hear ya, I was just throwing some stuff out there.  I’d be surprised if 5-GW wasn’t the typical 8 iron set for the Rogue Xs I mentioned above.  And you’d even start at 6 iron if you wanted to use more hybrids.

One thought is that often the same number hybrid is a club longer than the iron.  In many sets you would want to play both 4i and 4 hybrid for proper gapping.  So maybe Callaway was trying to make that work properly for at least one set.  Of course that is just one set out of about 8 so that doesn’t explain much.

One thing about the M4s, as opposed to the Rogue Xs, is that because they don’t have that extra club it will be pretty hard to use 14 clubs in your set.  You might need a chipper, a 64, or two drivers.  That is exacerbated by the fact that many who play these irons won’t want to play lower lofted fairway woods, since they may have trouble getting more distance than with higher lofted woods.  That implies to me that those really are for casual players and more serious golfers would want to stick to the likes of the G400, Ap1, etc.

I think the Mizzy CLK's were one of the few hybrids that actually replaced the numbered iron correctly.

[WUTiger]

For simplicity, we will go with the Golf Digest Hot List classifications for irons.. Players, GI and SGI. These are determined by intended market niche for the model.

I can go back to SGI/GI in the 2009 era. For Callaway, the X20 and the Big Berthas were considered SGI irons. I tried both, and the BB high launch stock shaft ballooned all the short irons. The X20 had the snob-maligned Uniflex shaft, which was midlaunch and worked fairly well for me for two seasons.

I had hit both X20 and X20 Tour models during my first iron switchover in 14 years. And, I switched to the X20 Tours because I was getting way too much range dispersion on what felt like fairly similar iron shots. The X20 Tours tightened things up a little.

As for longer irons, both had a 21* 3i and a 24* 4i. The X20 Tours came with flighted PX shafts, so these actually launched a little better (higher) than the X20s. (But I soon dumped the PX and went to NS Pro 8950).

In head design the X20 and X20 Tour were basically perimeter weighted cavity backs, with good solid clubfaces. They had similar dynamics to the TM Burner XRD and R7 irons, as compared in this old review Irons - Calla v. TM.

A problem in follow-up years came in distance irons. Many models battled hot spots in the faces, that would launch the ball extra long on occasion.  Solutions arrived around 2014 in the flex faces, polymer grooves and other things that enhance the control... and ball speed and hence distance. The TM SLDR (2014) had several newer features as designers tried to overcome hot spots.

The latest head designs - as per multiple Golf Expo manufacturers' reps - are such that the ball really lifts off well. And designers say the stronger lofts are in part so the ball doesn't fly too high... and it gives more distance. (Why Ping slightly strengthened its perimeter-weighted iron lofts back in the late 1980s).

In the GI/Distance clubs (such as TM P790), the long irons fly a long way, but how tight is the dispersion? We know it won't be like a 9i, but if it flies longer and shorter... and longer... that can be a control problem. I think we'll see a similar problem with the Rogue X long irons. In both these iron models, there's good news and bad news: Good news... it goes a long way.  Bad news... it goes a long way .

You would just have to test the 3i and 4i for different models and see what the distance vs. dispersion balance is. (And, shafts will be a large factor in many cases)

This is an oversimplified treatment because I haven't slept much past three days, and I feel hungry and I want to go home to eat a salmon steak embedded with crab meat. I hope this post helps.

 

[tinker]

The golf designers had it right the first time, 8 irons, 3 to pitch, traditional lofts. About 10 yard gap between clubs and all the yardage covered. Now you get 7 irons for the price of 8, you need 2 hybrids that are much more expensive than 2 irons, 4 wedges because your pitching wedge is an old 8 iron. Loft is just about every golfers friend. People stopped using 3 and 4 irons because the manufacturers delofted them to the point of uselessness, all in an effort to say their 7 iron goes farther then ever, but will it stop on a green? The same manufacturers will tell you you need an adjustable driver because you need to add loft to hit the driver well. After being in the custom golf business for 15 years I had an old set of Macgregor VIP’s rechromed, built them with new shafts to my specs and never hit the irons as good as I do now. I even hit the 2 iron and got back some of the distance I lost over the years. You have to practice but all good golfers practice. The smaller heads are easier to square and fly through the rough. 

[Groucho Valentine]

On March 2, 2018 at 3:28 PM, onthehunt526 said:

I honestly think your right 21° is typical GI 4I... I think M3, Rogue, AP1,  F8 and G400 are there or close.

I'm not stating that I have any issues with the strong or super strong lofts in these clubs, I understand the why they do it and some of the engineering and physics involved.

But why not say with the super-jacked irons offer 5-PW, AW, GW as the standard set. Instead of 4-PW, AW? A very few, if any high handicaps will ever be able to hit a 4-iron with any consistency.

It doesn't have to be a standard 3i-PW setup for the baseline. Im sure 4hybrid 5i-AW sets are very common. If you're buying new from the manufacturer you could probably get whatever set up you'd like. I carry a AP1 4 iron, but i have it bent to 24 degrees. 

[onthehunt526]

1 hour ago, Groucho Valentine said:

It doesn't have to be a standard 3i-PW setup for the baseline. Im sure 4hybrid 5i-AW sets are very common. If you're buying new from the manufacturer you could probably get whatever set up you'd like. I carry a AP1 4 iron, but i have it bent to 24 degrees. 

I personally don't carry GI irons anymore. I currently play blades. My PW isn't the loft of an old 8 iron though just a 9-iron. (47° PW).

I think the problem was, testosterone latent males saw pros hitting 245-yard iron shots, they wanted to do it.

[Groucho Valentine]

53 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

I personally don't carry GI irons anymore. I currently play blades. My PW isn't the loft of an old 8 iron though just a 9-iron. (47° PW).

I think the problem was, testosterone latent males saw pros hitting 245-yard iron shots, they wanted to do it.

I agree. The equipment manufacturers have been doing that for years as a marketing strategy. The tech has improved yes, but i cant help thinking that 19 degree 4is and such is why scoring has not really gone down among amateurs. 

[onthehunt526]

1 minute ago, Groucho Valentine said:

I agree. The equipment manufacturers have been doing that for years as a marketing strategy. The tech has improved yes, but i cant help thinking that 19 degree 4is and such is why scoring has not really gone down among amateurs. 

It's gone down, but only slightly. Some mid-range and better players are getting measurably better, but the high handicap have stayed stagnant. But when I mean measurable, I mean 0.2 of their handicaps.

I think I read somewhere that if mid to high-handicappers buy a set of irons the 3 and 4 irons are seldom used. Now that is becoming the 4 and 5 iron. 

If any of you have noticed when buying a set of used irons. You usually can tell the kind of player you are buying them from. Look at the long irons, it's a good indicator.

[saevel25]

On ‎3‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 10:55 AM, onthehunt526 said:

But now, the SGI 3-iron is dead and it's been replaced by a 18 or 19° 4-iron. What is really going on? I understand the whole vertical CG, High COR, high MOI thing. I get it.

There was a push to one-up the other company in club fitting. "Hey, our 7 iron goes further than theirs, just look at the numbers!" This has the effect of pushing the lofts down by one club. Then they needed to fit the gap in the wedges and created a utility/gap wedge.

The number on the club does not matter. All that matters is filling in the yardage gaps. I don't care if a 4 iron goes 220, versus another brands 3 iron.

Here is an example. 

Club	Loft		Club	Loft
Driver	N/A		Driver	N/A
3-Wood	N/A		3-Wood	N/A
Hybrid	N/A		Hybrid	N/A
3	22		4	22
4	26		5	26
5	30		6	30
6	34		7	34
7	38		8	38
8	42		9	42
9	46		PW	46
PW	50		GW	50
SW	56		SW	56
LW	60		LW	60
Putter	N/A		Putter	N/A

Both of these sets would produce similar yardages and yardage gaps. They are both playable. Now things like CG, golf shaft, weight, etc. will influence distance and flight.

[boogielicious]

6 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

There was a push to one-up the other company in club fitting. "Hey, our 7 iron goes further than theirs, just look at the numbers!" This has the effect of pushing the lofts down by one club. Then they needed to fit the gap in the wedges and created a utility/gap wedge.

The number on the club does not matter. All that matters is filling in the yardage gaps. I don't care if a 4 iron goes 220, versus another brands 3 iron.

Here is an example. 

Club	Loft		Club	Loft
Driver	N/A		Driver	N/A
3-Wood	N/A		3-Wood	N/A
Hybrid	N/A		Hybrid	N/A
3	22		4	22
4	26		5	26
5	30		6	30
6	34		7	34
7	38		8	38
8	42		9	42
9	46		PW	46
PW	50		GW	50
SW	56		SW	56
LW	60		LW	60
Putter	N/A		Putter	N/A

Both of these sets would produce similar yardages and yardage gaps. They are both playable. Now things like CG, golf shaft, weight, etc. will influence distance and flight.

Remember that the clubs launch higher too though. So if you go by launch angle, the loft has to go down slightly to optimize launch conditions.

[saevel25]

51 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

Remember that the clubs launch higher too though. So if you go by launch angle, the loft has to go down slightly to optimize launch conditions.

Depends,

If you have a lower loft, but a longer club, that could offset the loft reduction.

 

[onthehunt526]

18 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Depends,

If you have a lower loft, but a longer club, that could offset the loft reduction.

 

Tom Wishon, whom I love his books and videos on YouTube, says the difference in Vertical CG in a GI iron vs a blade is less than a quarter of an inch.

[saevel25]

14 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

Tom Wishon, whom I love his books and videos on YouTube, says the difference in Vertical CG in a GI iron vs a blade is less than a quarter of an inch.

If you look at drivers,

You have .13 inch difference between the highest CG and the Lowest CG (measured from center of the clubface). That amount of distance can knock off so much spin and launch angle that you can go from a 9 degree driver to a 11 degree driver and still keep spin at optimal conditions.

Irons are much heavier than a driver. I can see the CG difference being lower than a 1/4" an inch.

 

 

[onthehunt526]

12 hours ago, saevel25 said:

If you look at drivers,

You have .13 inch difference between the highest CG and the Lowest CG (measured from center of the clubface). That amount of distance can knock off so much spin and launch angle that you can go from a 9 degree driver to a 11 degree driver and still keep spin at optimal conditions.

Irons are much heavier than a driver. I can see the CG difference being lower than a 1/4" an inch.

 

 

 A 6-iron weighs in the 260s in grams for head weight. But even if you move most of the weight away from the face, it still will not lower the CG that much. If you are lucky it would lower it 3 to 4 mm.

This is my theory on this. It's all a damn marketing ploy... I don't honestly care what number is stamped on the bottom of the club, as long as I know how far I hit it. I think on tight holes a SGI 18.5° or 19° 4-iron would work as a driving iron... but I honestly think it's almost unhittable for a 20+ handicap.

[onthehunt526]

15 hours ago, saevel25 said:

There was a push to one-up the other company in club fitting. "Hey, our 7 iron goes further than theirs, just look at the numbers!" This has the effect of pushing the lofts down by one club. Then they needed to fit the gap in the wedges and created a utility/gap wedge.

The number on the club does not matter. All that matters is filling in the yardage gaps. I don't care if a 4 iron goes 220, versus another brands 3 iron.

Here is an example. 

Club	Loft		Club	Loft
Driver	N/A		Driver	N/A
3-Wood	N/A		3-Wood	N/A
Hybrid	N/A		Hybrid	N/A
3	22		4	22
4	26		5	26
5	30		6	30
6	34		7	34
7	38		8	38
8	42		9	42
9	46		PW	46
PW	50		GW	50
SW	56		SW	56
LW	60		LW	60
Putter	N/A		Putter	N/A

Both of these sets would produce similar yardages and yardage gaps. They are both playable. Now things like CG, golf shaft, weight, etc. will influence distance and flight.

 The problem @saevel25 with the table on the right, The OEMs do not stick to the 4 degree gaps from 4-iron thru gap wedge, even in GI clubs. Most of them, do this 3 or 3.5 degrees to the 6 or 7 iron (I'm talking to Callaway and TaylorMade), then go 4 degrees for a couple irons, and then 5 down thru the wedges and sometimes 6 degrees.

For instance, let's take a big five model (I'd do Tour Edge, but most won't relate). We'll do the AP1 from the 4-iron, 21, 24, 27, 30, 34, 38, 43, 48, 53. So from 4-iron down to 7 you have 3 degree gaps. 7 to 9 have 4 degree gaps, 9 thru the three wedges, have 5 degree gaps.... It isn't this way with everyone... but just an example.