Patrick Reed vs. the Rules of Golf

[Birdieputt]

8 minutes ago, woodzie264 said:

While it’s not an absolute, it’s a high correlation. Nothing wobbly there in McIlroy’s story. He calls penalties on himself and has an impeccable reputation. 

I am just showing you how you seem to be looking for ways to impugn Reed and how easy it is to look at others and no mud on the ball has nothing to do with imbedded.  

[woodzie264]

4 minutes ago, Birdieputt said:

I am just showing you how you seem to be looking for ways to impugn Reed and how easy it is to look at others and no mud on the ball has nothing to do with imbedded.  

You’re wrong. If you actually go back and read through my posts, you’ll see that I have actually been very clear that PR didn't violate any rules from the beginning. I’ve only been honest that his past, his reputation, is the reason he’s garnished the otherwise undeserved scrutiny that he has...which is true. Please read my posts before making that accusation.

But if you insist on that view, neither Rory or myself I will lose any sleep over it.

[Golfingdad]

12 hours ago, boogielicious said:

But the question is, “what is the good reason?”

1. He got penalized for improving a lie and maybe some other incidents in his career. Others have too but we don’t assume they are always cheating now.
2. Others have been DQ’d for incidents in their career. Reed has not.
3. Tiger got penalized at the Masters for an improper drop. Do we assume Tiger is always cheating now?
4. Phil took a hissy fit at the US Open and hit a moving ball. Do we think Phil cheats at every moment when we’re not watching?
5. Kuchar tried to convince a RO that his ball was imbedded in its pitch mark last year. Other than being a cheapskate, do we think badly of Kuchar?
6. Bryson tried to convince a RO that there were ants near his lie earlier this year.

The list goes on and on. Penalties happen in golf.

Bottom line is Reed is not very likable to many people because of his personality, his looks, his brashness or some other reason. People have sited former teammates and Peter Kostis as proof. Maybe Reed snuffed Kostis in an interview and he holds a grudge. I for one do not care much for Kostis, so his opinion is irrelevant. I’ve had teammates in my sports career that I could not stand but it never thought of them as cheaters.

How long do we hold this grudge on Reed? Does he have to run into a burning building and save orphans and nuns before we forgive him for improving his lie in a waste bunker? He got penalized after all.

Good post but just want to point out that “he got penalized after all” isn’t relevant.  If you think he intended to cheat in that situation - and just like this one, it’s impossible to know for sure - then the fact that he got penalized does not erase that at all.  Otherwise, good stuff. 🙂

[iacas]

What if the volunteer stepped on Patrick Reed's ball, too?

[Golfingdad]

This post is sort of "off topic" technically I guess ??  Just wanted to point out the title is a little off.  Out of curiosity, I went back to look at the Hero stuff and it didn't start until post 40.  The first few pages are from a situation about a year prior where he was upset at not receiving relief.

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

This post is sort of "off topic" technically I guess ??  Just wanted to point out the title is a little off.  Out of curiosity, I went back to look at the Hero stuff and it didn't start until post 40.  The first few pages are from a situation about a year prior where he was upset at not receiving relief.

Not off topic.

How about that title?

[boogielicious]

19 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

Good post but just want to point out that “he got penalized after all” isn’t relevant.  If you think he intended to cheat in that situation - and just like this one, it’s impossible to know for sure - then the fact that he got penalized does not erase that at all.  Otherwise, good stuff. 🙂

I think intent is so hard to prove though Drew. If you don’t like him, he intends to cheat all the time. If you like him, he intends to play by the rules all the time. It seems the forum members who don’t like him are leaning towards he cheated. Those that like him or are ambivalent are leaning towards he played by the rules.

[iacas]

14 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

Those that like him or are ambivalent are leaning towards he played by the rules.

I'm leaning toward:

• None of us know at all whether he "pushed the ball down" to make it embedded, whether he saw it land but tried to pull the wool over everyone's eyes, whether the volunteer stepped on the ball so it was "ball at rest moved," not "embedded," etc.
• Given what we know, all I can say is that he followed the Rules, and that the Rules assume that players are acting with integrity and honesty.

That's it. I'm not prepared to say he "didn't cheat." Only that we don't know, and that there's virtually no evidence (just people's biased opinions) whether he did or not.

[Birdieputt]

22 hours ago, woodzie264 said:

You’re wrong. If you actually go back and read through my posts, you’ll see that I have actually been very clear that PR didn't violate any rules from the beginning. I’ve only been honest that his past, his reputation, is the reason he’s garnished the otherwise undeserved scrutiny that he has...which is true. Please read my posts before making that accusation.

But if you insist on that view, neither Rory or myself I will lose any sleep over it.

I'm sure Rory is comforted that you have his back.  Reed seems to be able to take care of himself and doesn't appear to be losing any sleep that you keep insinuating he cheated because of his reputation but at the same time saying he didn't cheat.  Yes that is as tortured as it sounds.  

[woodzie264]

3 minutes ago, Birdieputt said:

I'm sure Rory is comforted that you have his back.  Reed seems to be able to take care of himself and doesn't appear to be losing any sleep that you keep insinuating he cheated because of his reputation but at the same time saying he didn't cheat.  Yes that is as tortured as it sounds.  

Never accused him of cheating, only that his reputation is the cause of his scrutiny. In fact, yesterday, I even point out that he may very well have changed his ways and that everyone else is the problem because they refuse to change the lens through which they see him.  It’s in plain English, I can explain to you, but I can’t understand it for you. 

[Golfingdad]

2 hours ago, boogielicious said:

I think intent is so hard to prove though Drew. If you don’t like him, he intends to cheat all the time. If you like him, he intends to play by the rules all the time. It seems the forum members who don’t like him are leaning towards he cheated. Those that like him or are ambivalent are leaning towards he played by the rules.

Intent is almost impossible to prove.   But that's the thing - we're just sharing our opinions here so we get to factor what he believe his intent to have been.  If we were in a court of law, then I'd be standing with you guys, and basing my decision on concrete evidence only to say he's "not guilty," as opposed to innocent.

And I can only speak for myself here, but I disagree with the rest of your statement in that you're basically making the assumption that we all have preconceived opinions and are stuck in them.  I don't believe that is fair.

Here's a hypothetical:  Forget Reed for a second and let's talk about Justin Thomas.  I currently like him and think his mistake a few weeks back was unfortunate.  I don't have ill will towards him and I still root for him (maybe a tiny bit less - but I'm not actively rooting against him).  I have not thought that long and that hard about it though either as it isn't terribly important to me.  However, if he were to have another similar incident in the future, I'm certainly going to come back to this last one and take it into consideration when reforming my opinion of him.  And my opinion very well might be a lot stronger then and I'll probably think he's a big homophobic jerk.

Back to Reed, it's a similar situation.  If you asked me before Saturday what I thought of Reed I honestly couldn't even tell you.  After what happened, though, I am certainly allowed to factor in all available evidence to form my new, evolving opinion.  Since the question is possible cheating in golf, those factors definitely includes the Hero in '19, and the stuff from his college days.  And today it also includes more stuff from the new thread about his personal life.

As an aside, if anybody were able to go back and find the "top 5" thread from way back when, I believe that you'll find I defended him pretty hard on that.  All I can say is opinions change over time based on available evidence.

[woodzie264]

@Birdieputt, please ignore my snarkiness. I can see where one may construe my comments to be indicting Reed based on his reputation, but that was not my intent, nor did I think that’s how I came across. I think this dead horse has been beaten enough.

[Golfingdad]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

I'm leaning toward:

• None of us know at all whether he "pushed the ball down" to make it embedded, whether he saw it land but tried to pull the wool over everyone's eyes, whether the volunteer stepped on the ball so it was "ball at rest moved," not "embedded," etc.
• Given what we know, all I can say is that he followed the Rules, and that the Rules assume that players are acting with integrity and honesty.

That's it. I'm not prepared to say he "didn't cheat." Only that we don't know, and that there's virtually no evidence (just people's biased opinions) whether he did or not.

And even with my opinion where it is ... I agree with 100% of this post.  Except perhaps to say that the word "biased" is unnecessary and redundant. 🙂

[woodzie264]

6 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Intent is almost impossible to prove.   But that's the thing - we're just sharing our opinions here so we get to factor what he believe his intent to have been.  If we were in a court of law, then I'd be standing with you guys, and basing my decision on concrete evidence only to say he's "not guilty," as opposed to innocent.

And I can only speak for myself here, but I disagree with the rest of your statement in that you're basically making the assumption that we all have preconceived opinions and are stuck in them.  I don't believe that is fair.

Here's a hypothetical:  Forget Reed for a second and let's talk about Justin Thomas.  I currently like him and think his mistake a few weeks back was unfortunate.  I don't have ill will towards him and I still root for him (maybe a tiny bit less - but I'm not actively rooting against him).  I have not thought that long and that hard about it though either as it isn't terribly important to me.  However, if he were to have another similar incident in the future, I'm certainly going to come back to this last one and take it into consideration when reforming my opinion of him.  And my opinion very well might be a lot stronger then and I'll probably think he's a big homophobic jerk.

Back to Reed, it's a similar situation.  If you asked me before Saturday what I thought of Reed I honestly couldn't even tell you.  After what happened, though, I am certainly allowed to factor in all available evidence to form my new, evolving opinion.  Since the question is possible cheating in golf, those factors definitely includes the Hero in '19, and the stuff from his college days.  And today it also includes more stuff from the new thread about his personal life.

As an aside, if anybody were able to go back and find the "top 5" thread from way back when, I believe that you'll find I defended him pretty hard on that.  All I can say is opinions change over time based on available evidence.

Good post. 

[iacas]

39 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Back to Reed, it's a similar situation.  If you asked me before Saturday what I thought of Reed I honestly couldn't even tell you.  After what happened, though, I am certainly allowed to factor in all available evidence to form my new, evolving opinion.

But what happened Saturday is the equivalent of Justin Thomas saying "darn it!" and you factoring in his thing from Hawaii, no? Because what Reed did at Torrey was not the equivalent of JT actually doing something again.

Reed cheated one time that you know of. So why does the Torrey Pines thing have you "factoring it in"?

39 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

and the stuff from his college days

That's never been proven, either.

Could it be explained by jealous college kids who didn't like the braggadocios, cocky upstart?

39 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

As an aside, if anybody were able to go back and find the "top 5" thread from way back when, I believe that you'll find I defended him pretty hard on that.  All I can say is opinions change over time based on available evidence.

30 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

And even with my opinion where it is ... I agree with 100% of this post.  Except perhaps to say that the word "biased" is unnecessary and redundant. 🙂data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAPABAP///wAAACH5BAEKAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAICRAEAOw==

🙂

[Golfingdad]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

But what happened Saturday is the equivalent of Justin Thomas saying "darn it!" and you factoring in his thing from Hawaii, no?

Not exactly "darn it" but I see what you're getting at and it's a fair point.  Maybe more like him uttering something we can't quite make out and me using Hawaii to lean towards thinking it's on the worse end of things.

9 minutes ago, iacas said:

That's never been proven, either.

Could it be explained by jealous college kids who didn't like the braggadocios, cocky upstart?

 Certainly, although I thought I read recently that there was a quote from the assistant coach at UGA saying it was accurate?  

Quote

This is exactly how I read his comments as well. More of a simple belief in himself and his game at this very moment than him suggesting that he is destined for the hall of fame or anything. I will say that the listing of the resume in the interview was a little unnecessary, but remember that we're talking about a 23 year old that is barely over a year removed from being a completely irrelevant Monday qualifier. Heck, these last two interviews are quite possibly the third and fourth he's ever been asked to give on tv. He likely doesn't even have a publicist yet, lol. I'm going to cut the KID some slack.

That's me from the above linked Doral thread.  March, 2014.  😝  (I was a young kid back then too of course, all of 40 years old at the time, what the heck did I know??)

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Not exactly "darn it" but I see what you're getting at and it's a fair point.  Maybe more like him uttering something we can't quite make out and me using Hawaii to lean towards thinking it's on the worse end of things.

Fair.

3 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Certainly, although I thought I read recently that there was a quote from the assistant coach at UGA saying it was accurate?

I don't know. Haack was pretty hands-off from what I can tell, and let the older kids kinda run things.

Patrick showed up as a 17-year-old (he skipped his senior year of high school or something?) and immediately told all the other guys he was going to kick their asses (at golf). He alienated immediately.

(I kinda like him for that, and get why they wouldn't.)

[boogielicious]

3 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

Intent is almost impossible to prove.   But that's the thing - we're just sharing our opinions here so we get to factor what he believe his intent to have been.  If we were in a court of law, then I'd be standing with you guys, and basing my decision on concrete evidence only to say he's "not guilty," as opposed to innocent.

And I can only speak for myself here, but I disagree with the rest of your statement in that you're basically making the assumption that we all have preconceived opinions and are stuck in them.  I don't believe that is fair.

Here's a hypothetical:  Forget Reed for a second and let's talk about Justin Thomas.  I currently like him and think his mistake a few weeks back was unfortunate.  I don't have ill will towards him and I still root for him (maybe a tiny bit less - but I'm not actively rooting against him).  I have not thought that long and that hard about it though either as it isn't terribly important to me.  However, if he were to have another similar incident in the future, I'm certainly going to come back to this last one and take it into consideration when reforming my opinion of him.  And my opinion very well might be a lot stronger then and I'll probably think he's a big homophobic jerk.

Back to Reed, it's a similar situation.  If you asked me before Saturday what I thought of Reed I honestly couldn't even tell you.  After what happened, though, I am certainly allowed to factor in all available evidence to form my new, evolving opinion.  Since the question is possible cheating in golf, those factors definitely includes the Hero in '19, and the stuff from his college days.  And today it also includes more stuff from the new thread about his personal life.

As an aside, if anybody were able to go back and find the "top 5" thread from way back when, I believe that you'll find I defended him pretty hard on that.  All I can say is opinions change over time based on available evidence.

Good post, but it is still based on hearsay and not real evidence. Hearsay is not admissible in real court, only in the court of public opinion. No one has actually come out on record to implicate Reed on anything other than the waste bunker incident. Many don’t like him, which is certain. But what is really there? Is he really a cheater or just a guy who is disliked for his bravado? Lots of players have bravado. Is he a jerk to his parents or are his parents jerks?

At this point I think the people who push the innuendo are cowards. If he really did something in college then come out and say it publicly. If Kostis really has instances of cheating, show us. Otherwise it’s just hearsay.