Club head speed

[Buckeyebowman]

There have been many discussions about what Palmer, Nicklaus, etc, could do with modern golf balls and equipment. Being as there were no flight monitors, Trackman, Flightscope, or whatever back when those guys were playing we may have no idea. But I had an idea. Are there any slo-mo videos of their swings? We know there are those all the way back to Bobby Jones, and that ground breaking series of instructional films he produced.

I figure that a normal 30 fps frame rate wouldn't work since the clubhead would just be a blur going through the ball. It would have to be slo-mo. If such footage existed couldn't some calculations be done comparing distance traveled over time elapsed, by counting frames, to come up with a good approximation of mph clubhead speed?

I don't know where this idea came from, it just popped up in my head.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Buckeyebowman

[A Gap Wedge]

I actually remember someone doing an experiment like this using old videos along with videos of current pros using old clubs. IIRC they concluded that he majority of player were around 120 mph based on distances and frames per second.

Not sure how accurate this estimate is, but it seems pretty close..

[colin007]

On 7/29/2018 at 10:26 PM, A Gap Wedge said:

I actually remember someone doing an experiment like this using old videos along with videos of current pros using old clubs. IIRC they concluded that he majority of player were around 120 mph based on distances and frames per second.

Not sure how accurate this estimate is, but it seems pretty close..

That seems off. Today's players are much more athletic than previous generations, and the current average is about 113. There's no way they were faster back then.

[billchao]

1 hour ago, colin007 said:

That seems off. Today's players are much more athletic than previous generations, and the current average is about 113. There's no way they were faster back then.

Older pros were also swinging heavier and shorter clubs, both factors that will reduce clubhead speed.

Of course you're talking about tour average and it's possible whoever did the study @A Gap Wedge is alluding to only looked at the top pros of any given era, so the numbers will get skewed a bit. According to this pga.com article:

Quote

Using high-speed film analysis, experts estimate legendary amateur Bobby Jones had a swing speed of 117 miles per hour in the 1930s - using hickory shafts. 

It's entirely possible Jones would exceed 120 mph with modern equipment.

Then there's also this article saying Jack Nicklaus had his swing speed measured for the first time at 58 years old and he hit 118 mph.

[Buckeyebowman]

10 hours ago, colin007 said:

That seems off. Today's players are much more athletic than previous generations, and the current average is about 113. There's no way they were faster back then.

That's a point, but I'm talking about the top guys like Palmer and Nicklaus. The big hitters. In particular, I've seen film clips of Jack taking some thunderous cuts with a driver!

And, years ago, Palmer came to town to play the inaugural round at a Pete Dye design, Avalon Lakes, against the top local pro. Palmer drove it so far past this guy, I felt sorry for him. On one tee, as Palmer was teeing up his ball, someone in the gallery called out "Crunch one, Arnie!" Arnie did, indeed, crunch one!

[A Gap Wedge]

14 hours ago, colin007 said:

That seems off. Today's players are much more athletic than previous generations, and the current average is about 113. There's no way they were faster back then.

I was referring not to the average, but the top guys that were amount the longer hitters. Heck even I can do 113 if I go at i, just not average it. I’m sure the average back then was below 113 due to shafts and golfers being less focused on conditioning, but there were longer hitters getting close to 120mph.

[sjduffers]

And to think they were doing it while wearing suits and ties (e.g. Bobby Jones, Walter Hagen, Ben Hogan, etc...)!

If they were indeed hitting 300 yards drives, and the measurement of those hasn't really changed much since then, they had to have the swing speed needed to produce those today, and then some given how much better the equipment (and the ball) is today. I think Arnie, Jack and Greg Norman would all be up there, in terms of swing speed, with the best of them today, save perhaps the long drive competitors.

[billchao]

8 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

And to think they were doing it while wearing suits and ties (e.g. Bobby Jones, Walter Hagen, Ben Hogan, etc...)!

I've never seen a picture of Hogan playing in a suit and tie. He's like two decades after Jones and Hagen.

[sjduffers]

11 minutes ago, billchao said:

I've never seen a picture of Hogan playing in a suit and tie. He's like two decades after Jones and Hagen.

Maybe not the full suit, but definitely the tie.

Use Google Image search ("Ben Hogan pictures")...

Regardless, he was still wearing dress shirts, much like Phil is doing now, lol! 

 

Edited August 5, 2018 by sjduffers

[Patch]

Just thinking about the the balls used by the ancient ones. Hitting 300 yards back then, may have required faster swing speeds, than what today's balls, and clubs might require for the same distances. 

[colin007]

I don't have any concrete facts to support this, but I do not believe the previous generations were  carrying the ball anywhere near the modern guys. Any number of circumstances back then could've lead to a 300 yard total after a 250 carry.

[JonMA1]

28 minutes ago, colin007 said:

I don't have any concrete facts to support this, but I do not believe the previous generations were  carrying the ball anywhere near the modern guys. Any number of circumstances back then could've lead to a 300 yard total after a 250 carry.

I'd tend to agree. If for no other reason, in the absence of proof it's human nature to exaggerate.

But there have always been freaks of nature in every era. I assume an occasional 300 yards of carry might have been possible, just very rare.

Shorter distances compared to today with lesser equipment still would have been impressive as it would have been relative to what everyone else was hitting. (I wonder what kind of expressions you'd hear from the gallery in 1955 when someone hit a 280 yard drive?)

Without the internet, arguments between amateurs would take place at the clubhouse and would consist of someone calling bullshit on his buddy's claim of carrying his 1 wood 230 yards. They'd have to go out there and step off the yardage just to settle it.

[Buckeyebowman]

I don't know that they were hitting it 300, but they were hitting farther than everybody else at the time. Plus, there's the debate of what some of these players might be able to do with modern equipment.

I figure if Jones and Hagen might generate 110 mph clubhead speed w/hickory shafts and persimmon driver heads, God only knows what they might do with graphite and titanium!

[billchao]

1 hour ago, colin007 said:

I don't have any concrete facts to support this, but I do not believe the previous generations were  carrying the ball anywhere near the modern guys.

I don't think anyone is saying that.