"Focus on the Process, Don't Care about the Result"

[iacas]

25 minutes ago, criley4way said:

There are a ton of people out there who give bad advice. Who are the respected instructors who say you shouldn't care? 

I’m not touching that one. Google it or something. I have no idea who you consider “respectable.”

I posted this because I’ve heard it several times from different people lately.

And even if nobody actually said it, if people are hearing that then it’s still a problem.

[Big C]

Erik isn’t the basic underpinning of that philosophy that by “letting go” of a results-oriented mindset, you will improve those things within your sphere of influence and that better results will naturally follow?

The biggest advocate of process vs results has got to be Nick Saban, who is arguably the most successful college football coach of all time.

It just seemed to me that improved results were the implied benefit of that mindset. Speaking of golf specifically, I don’t think I’ve ever met any serious golfer that truly believes results don’t matter. Almost all serious golfers care deeply about the results and - in many cases - care too much. 

Who are you referring to in the original post? Other instructors?

[Piz]

I maul about process; but the goal is to obtain a preferable result.  I have every intention of having every shot turn out exactly as I imagine.  Is that process or result?  How to go about playing better interests me.  How I do, from one day to the next, does not.  As long as I feel like I am getting somewhere...I'm okay with it...unless I play like crap.  That doesn't make any sense; but it's why I play.

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, Big C said:

Erik isn’t the basic underpinning of that philosophy that by “letting go” of a results-oriented mindset, you will improve those things within your sphere of influence and that better results will naturally follow?

Again, yes, but that's when people use the concept correctly.

Far too many people (lately, in my sphere) are saying it or hearing it incorrectly, as if you're actually supposed to not care about the results.

5 minutes ago, Big C said:

Who are you referring to in the original post? Other instructors?

Again… I've heard it from a number of people in various "categories" recently, including instructors.

[Big C]

Ok but what I am suggesting is that you may not be giving enough credit to some of the people that you are referring to in the original post. They might feel the “correct” interpretation of the concept is so self evident that it really doesn’t need to be articulated. 

So they say “focus on the process. Don’t worry about what you score today. Etc etc.” The unstated implication is that this improves results in the medium to long term. 

At least that’s how I interpret it when I hear people use that term.

[Vinsk]

25 minutes ago, Big C said:

” The unstated implication is that this improves results in the medium to long term. 

At least that’s how I interpret it when I hear people use that term.

I think Erik is saying that the unstated implication is obviously needing to be stated as he has seen evidence where it is being interpreted incorrectly.

The results are being disregarded as meaningless.

Edited September 1, 2018 by Vinsk

[iacas]

29 minutes ago, Big C said:

Ok but what I am suggesting is that you may not be giving enough credit to some of the people that you are referring to in the original post. They might feel the “correct” interpretation of the concept is so self evident that it really doesn’t need to be articulated.

No. A few times I have asked. They’ve clarified. They mean literally “don’t care about the results.”

Generally speaking, Colin, I don’t make assumptions when I make posts like this.

4 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

I think Erik is saying that the unstated implication is obviously needing to be stated as he has seen evidence where it is being interpreted incorrectly.

This.

I thought it went without saying. Recent discussions and interactions have shown me that it needs saying for some. 

[Big C]

Interesting. How do they support that line of thinking? It’s borderline indefensible, IMO.

Sure I know a few golfers that genuinely don’t care about the results. They play once  or twice a year, drink a 12 pack on the course and don’t care one bit if they shoot a 95 or a 120. 

But those guys certainly aren’t worrying about the “process” either. Who cares about the process if there is not some evaluation of progress at various intervals? And how do you evaluate progress without even a modest focus on results? 

Simply put, anyone who is focused on their process in any endeavor in life is doing so because they want better results at some point and time down the road.

That said, I realize I’m preaching to the choir here.

[boogielicious]

Results are a crucial part of learning whether they are what you desire or not. I see this in engineering all the time. A failure is not really a failure, but a data point. Some get frustrated by this, but it is how we improve results. Analyze the data and adjust toward getting the desired result. 

So if they are saying, “Ignore the result just keep playing” then I say they are way off base. If they would amend it with “don’t let the result affect your emotions”, which is harder to do for me, then I can see a more psychological thought process. But you still have to analyze the result to correct your on course process for better scoring.

For me, in golf, it is:

1. Focus on the process during practice.
2. Analyze that process with video. Am I practicing correctly?
3. Bring it to the course.
4. Play each shot and observe the result.
5. Correct what needs to be adjusted. 

Sometimes it takes a lot of holes to correct and scores suffer. But my objective is to score lower. If I just wanted to have a nice walk with a 6 iron, I’d go hiking.

[JonMA1]

I had to back off on caring intensely about the results this year. I had to in order to keep playing. But I don't think I'm typical. I was stuck at the extremes of playing very poor golf and, at the same time, caring far too much about results. That's kind of bad combination. 

When I was told to disregard the results, I think the intent was almost 100% literal. I don't know yet if it was meant to be something I do forever, but I think it might have been something I need to do more of now.

Of course I can't completely disregard results any more than I can disregard the quality of any other thing I do in life. But I can be realistic about expectations and accept there will be poor shots at my level. My game is what it is after all. Keeping a level head and learning how to practice on the right things is likely the only way I'll improve. Maybe there's a level of caring that is optimal and dependent upon an individuals personality? (I don't know... may be talking out of my ass a little.)

But I do believe that when the results have that level of control over how much I enjoy the game, it's time to turn it down a notch.

18 hours ago, iacas said:

Care about the result. Care intensely about the result. Don't let it define you - how well you play golf says almost nothing about you as a human being, a father, a husband, a woman, or whatever. But within the context of golf… care about the result, and the things that lead to better results more often.

Well-stated. 

[iacas]

Though technically he isn't telling you to not care about the result, the implication here remains to de-emphasize caring about the result. How much is "too much" after all?

[Vinsk]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

Though technically he isn't telling you to not care about the result, the implication here remains to de-emphasize caring about the result. How much is "too much" after all?

#3: I can accept that when I'm practicing. Similar to the mindset in your post when you were working on your IIRC trail arm position and you stated that your best swing resulted in a cold shank.

#5 I simply don't agree with that. If I'm out playing with my boys (7 and 12) then yeah, I'm working with them and playing along and I don't have much thought into how my game is going. Otherwise I just don't agree with that mindset at all. And I agree, how much is too much?

[Big C]

4 hours ago, iacas said:

Though technically he isn't telling you to not care about the result, the implication here remains to de-emphasize caring about the result. How much is "too much" after all?

Erik, you're stretching here. The entire underpinning of Rotella's philosophy is to overcome the mental roadblocks that keep people from playing their best golf. Granted, he goes about it from the perspective of the mental game, but his whole career is built on helping people improve the result.

And I think you are being dis-ingenuous with the question of "too much." I'm sure you know people who are wound way too tight on the course. Who care so much about hitting the perfect shot or going low in a tournament, that any mis-fire or bad break sends them into a mental funk. I certainly do, and I don't come into contact with nearly as many golfers as you do. 

Rotella isn't saying don't care - or anything close to that. But he does seem to be saying that - on the continuum of the "emotional investment" spectrum - guys who care too much about the result probably perform more poorly than guys who care too little. And frankly, I think he's absolutely correct.

[iacas]

10 hours ago, Big C said:

Erik, you're stretching here.

I'm not. He too downplays the importance of the result.

10 hours ago, Big C said:

The entire underpinning of Rotella's philosophy is to overcome the mental roadblocks that keep people from playing their best golf.

I know that, but "not caring about the result" doesn't help people play their best golf.

10 hours ago, Big C said:

Granted, he goes about it from the perspective of the mental game, but his whole career is built on helping people improve the result.

So?

10 hours ago, Big C said:

And I think you are being dis-ingenuous with the question of "too much."

No, I'm not. People have read words like this and taken away from it that they're only supposed to care about the process and that caring about the result even a little is "too much."

10 hours ago, Big C said:

I'm sure you know people who are wound way too tight on the course.

Here's where you go wrong, Colin. I'm not talking about those people. I'm talking about the rather large group of people who, for whatever reason, honestly believe they're being told not to care about the result. At all.

10 hours ago, Big C said:

Rotella isn't saying don't care - or anything close to that.

We both know that, but:

• He is downplaying the result and up-playing the process.
• Golfers will interpret this differently, and a good number of them will take it as I've stated consistently throughout this topic: not to care about the result.

10 hours ago, Big C said:

And frankly, I think he's absolutely correct.

That's irrelevant. You're not one the golfers who believe they should "Focus on the Process, Don't Care about the Result".

On 8/31/2018 at 12:15 PM, iacas said:

Though I've downplayed the mental game in the past (and will continue to do so), and though there's some truth to this saying… A number of people recently have taken it far too literally, and if that's how they take it, I think this saying is one of the biggest loads of crap.

You're off on a tangent, Colin. I've never said that focusing on the process and caring the "proper amount" about the result is a bad thing. The opposite is true.

This topic is and has been directed at those who seem to think they aren't supposed to care about the result at all. I have seen and talked with more golfers than you have, and among those, the number that think they're not supposed to care about the result is growing.

They misinterpret the list from Rotella and come away thinking that even if they barely care about the result now, they still might care too much. They misinterpret other sayings from other people to think they aren't supposed to care at all. And, also, there are actual instructors or people out there specifically telling people to care only about the process, and not at all about the result.

[Big C]

12 hours ago, iacas said:

Here's where you go wrong, Colin. I'm not talking about those people. I'm talking about the rather large group of people who, for whatever reason, honestly believe they're being told not to care about the result. At all.

Two quick comments before I hit the sack and try to wake up early to catch the start of Friday foursomes

1. I agree that this is where we diverge. You say it's where I "go wrong," but honestly the people you are describing are not among those that I've encountered. They don't exist in my golfing world. In competing with (and against) the guys who play in our club championships, our partner tournaments, our team play matches, I haven't met a single person that doesn't care or is actively trying not to care about whether they play well. I haven't ever talked to an instructor who espouses what you are describing either.

Your say that you have, and I suppose I have to believe you. The number of people you touch in the golf world is exponentially greater than mine, so fair enough. 

2. To some extent, I think it's a moot point anyway. If you care enough to seek out golf instruction of any sort, you care about the prospect of playing good golf and shooting lower scores. And that is not something that you can just turn off, no matter how hard you try. 

So I guess what I'm getting at is that even if someone preaching "care less about the result" is giving bad advice, it's not really going to be particularly damaging advice. Because a guy who is competitive and wants to play well can't just flip off that "caring" switch. He may be able to manifest it in a way that is more positive, calm, serene, whatever. But deep down, he is still going to care. 

The guys who truly don't care about the results when they play golf ain't reading Bob Rotella - I'm pretty certain about that.

Edited September 28, 2018 by Big C

[iacas]

6 hours ago, Big C said:

1. I agree that this is where we diverge. You say it's where I "go wrong," but honestly the people you are describing are not among those that I've encountered.

Then, again, I'm not talking to those people. I'm talking to the people - including instructors - who think you should actually try not to care about the result.

They're out there.

6 hours ago, Big C said:

2. To some extent, I think it's a moot point anyway. If you care enough to seek out golf instruction of any sort, you care about the prospect of playing good golf and shooting lower scores. And that is not something that you can just turn off, no matter how hard you try.

Not really. Instruction is part of the process, and you can care enough to want to get better, but still be actively trying to not care about the result.

6 hours ago, Big C said:

So I guess what I'm getting at is that even if someone preaching "care less about the result" is giving bad advice, it's not really going to be particularly damaging advice.

That's not the topic, and I'm not talking to people who care the right amount. I'm talking to people who care too little or who are trying to care too little. Always have been.

Everyone's different, and I agree that some people care too much and would be better off caring less, but to those who care the right amount, or to those who care less than the right amount, telling them to care less is damaging advice, and telling them to not care at all is particularly bad advice.

[Ty_Webb]

The best way I heard this put is something along the lines of "you should care about the result, but not worry about the result. Think of it this way - consider the two phrases, said to you by a loved one "I care about you" and "I worry about you". They invoke very different feelings. You should care about the result, but the goal is not to worry about it."

From my perspective, I wound up in a playoff earlier this year. It was sudden death and the first two holes had water left. During the round itself I had played it a bit too safe and wound up in the rough on the other side of the hole. In the playoff, I had to get going fairly quickly, so I took the point of view that I was going to aim it at the middle of the fairway and if I ended up pulling it (which I had done a couple of times that day), then I would be able to get going quicker. I hit it straight down the middle on 1 and 2. The one on 2 wound up in a deep divot and I couldn't hold the green from there and I wound up losing. It was very interesting to see how when I wasn't worried about the result (what if I hit it left), I hit much better shots - the two best drives I hit all day in fact. Unfortunately I do worry about results on the course a lot and I find it very hard to get over that. 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Ty_Webb said:

The best way I heard this put is something along the lines of "you should care about the result, but not worry about the result.

Well, ignoring that you can "worry" about the result, and such a mindset actually works best for some kinds of people, this continues to miss the point that what I perceive as an increasing number of people are actually saying that you should not care about the result at all.

These people are in the minority, and they're getting the general saying or advice wrong, but this topic isn't directed at people who hear or interpret or repeat the advice correctly.

P.S. To the first point, Dr. Bhrett McCabe says that there are I think four types of mental modes and they all suit different people. There are those who perform best, for example, when they "catastrophize" the events. You wouldn't think that would be true, but he makes a case for it, and in my experience knows what he's talking about.